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Playing the saxophone Classical sound on tenor

David Roach said:
I'm sure you can use Google and YouTube as well as I can. I have not recorded any classical solo works because the repertoire does not interest me and I am temperamentally better suited to chamber music. I am more interested in other things, but, as you can see I have strong views about the Tenor Sax in classical music, having bashed my head against that particular wall for many years 😉.
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I always thought the British were more circumspect and civil in voicing their opinions. Are you sure you're not Australian? 😀
 
altissimo said:
'Defining Classical Tenor Saxophone: performer identity, performance practice and contemporary repertoire' - Peter Leung
https://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/bitstream/2123/15704/1/Leung_APPROVED COPY_thesis.pdf
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Thanks for posting this @altissimo . Very interesting. I haven't read this through yet, but at a quick glance I see an obvious pitfall from a practical point of view. The author quotes liberally from different sources without any acknowledgement (that I see, correct me if I'm wrong) that comparing Larry Teal's pedagogy with JM Londeix's and Sigurd Rascher's and Paul Harvey's etc etc is quite peculiar, since they all had/have different strong views on how to play the instrument. E.g. Paul Harvey is principally a clarinettist, and although Paul is a very fine saxophone player, Londeix would probably foam at the mouth to be quoted in the same book, never mind the same page. It's like comparing Dave Liebman and John Harle, all very well as an academic exercise, but diametrically opposed and quite bizarre in the real world.

However, if someone gains something from it, all's well. I'll give it a proper read.
 
David Roach said:
Thanks for posting this @altissimo . Very interesting. I haven't read this through yet, but at a quick glance I see an obvious pitfall from a practical point of view. The author quotes liberally from different sources without any acknowledgement (that I see, correct me if I'm wrong) that comparing Larry Teal's pedagogy with JM Londeix's and Sigurd Rascher's and Paul Harvey's etc etc is quite peculiar, since they all had/have different strong views on how to play the instrument. E.g. Paul Harvey is principally a clarinettist, and although Paul is a very fine saxophone player, Londeix would probably foam at the mouth to be quoted in the same book, never mind the same page. It's like comparing Dave Liebman and John Harle, all very well as an academic exercise, but diametrically opposed and quite bizarre in the real world.

However, if someone gains something from it, all's well. I'll give it a proper read.
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I think the section on technique is just a brief overview referencing different sources, rather than a direct comparison of their methods, nor is the paper concerned with the rivalries of the people you mentioned. He doesn't quote much at all, let alone liberally, he's merely putting the relevant sources in brackets as he goes along in the accepted manner of academic theses eg -
"Tone production in wind instruments involves the creation of a sound via the regular vibration of the air column through the instrument (Teal, 1963). Musicians are most concerned with creating sounds which feature a specific tone quality or colour, particularly those which are deeply resonant and pleasing to both performer and audience (Londeix, 1997; Teal, 1963). While the physical instrument plays an important role in tone production, achieving the desired and consistent tone colour on the saxophone relies heavily on the performer’s embouchure and air support (Londeix, 1997; Rascher, 1941; Teal, 1963; Weiss & Netti, 2009)"
the works cited are listed in the bibliography at the end. Any quotes are in italics with the name of the person quoted eg -
“The main thing I would like to tell my students, one of the main things, is to not play alto on the tenor, which is what most people worldwide in the classical world do, they play alto on the tenor. They squeeze the reed, they do not play with an open throat.” (Mellema)

but the paper isn't really concerned with technique, it's based on a survey of a small sample group of classical tenor players "in which they explored their perceptions of classical tenor saxophone performance, and gave insights into their experiences studying, performing and teaching the most significant repertoire" most of which comes after page 40..

some of the observations of some of the players interviewed are things you may even agree with..
 
David Roach said:
I'll be sure to read it properly.
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you may not find anything in there that's new to you, but I found it useful and the few hours I spent last night listening to some of the players mentioned in this thesis indicates that the 'heavy vibrato' school of playing seems to be dying out and the younger generation are more concerned with accurately interpreting the composers intent
 
In classical saxophone playing in my understanding there are at least 3 "schools" of thought where it comes to vibrato.
  1. Where the vibrato is somewhat pronounced and continuous regardless of the note value. Essentially it is considered to be a part of the tone, not something added on. This tends to add a "glissening" to the tone when used in fast runs.
  2. Where the vibrato is even throughout the note, but used only on longer tones in each phrase.
  3. Where the vibrato is more spontaneous, reflecting the intensity of the music with no dogmatic pattern, but it starts at the beginning of the note unlike some jazz vibratos.
It appears to me that #1 has come full circle with some "new age" saxophone players using a continuous fast shallow vibrato to color their sound to fit into this style.
  1. Where jazz players are concerned some of the older players used a wider vibrato more frequently than many contemporary players depending of course upon the tempo and style of music being played.
  2. A common trait used by jazz players is to mimic the vocalist style of starting a long tone straight and then gradually adding vibrato toward the end.
  3. Some players when playing ballads such as Cannonball Adderly more closely resemble a classical style of vibrato starting at the beginning of a long tone and then continuing evenly up to the end of the note.
  4. As with tone quality and style, the use of vibrato among jazz players tends to be a very individual aspect of their playing.
 
Why anyone would want to stick with just one vibrato style ...... I know it served Sidney well, but really today....it can be such an expressive technique when used sensitively.

Moving the tongue to create vibrato seems to affect the itch very little if at all. Jaw/lip vibrato more so. All have their uses.

Its discussions like this that make me so glad I am just a simple Funk/R&B/and pretendajzz entertainer. I know I do not have the required discipline and concentration to do classical. How about a nice bit of the Chicken
 
altissimo said:
so there's not a school of thought that involves actually respecting the intentions of the composer and playing in a manner that is in sympathy with the mood of the composition?
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Probably #3 in classical comes the closest. Would one expect the same of a flautist, oboist, or bassoonist whose vibrato is an integral part of the "classical" or "orchestral" sound of the instrument?

I also believe the period of the piece of music should also dictate the style of vibrato to a certain extent. Playing a Bach Violin Concerto on saxophone would be somewhat different than playing a French impressionistic piece, and even more different than playing a modern composition. And yes, when playing Auld Lang Syne I do try to sound like Guy Lombaro's sax section. Gotta love those Canadians. 🙂
 
altissimo said:
so there's not a school of thought that involves actually respecting the intentions of the composer and playing in a manner that is in sympathy with the mood of the composition?
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Given that a number of highly respected classical musicians have stated something along the line of the music is in the spaces between the notes, and there are no recordings before the 20's, how would one truly know what the intention of the composer would be
 
this is an interesting study of the use of vibrato in classical sax - https://etd.ohiolink.edu/rws_etd/document/get/ucin1384428227/inline

it seems like Marcel Mule is to blame for the 'wow and flutter' school of classical vibrato

"At the time of the saxophone’s invention in the mid-nineteenth century, it was uncommon for wind instrumentalists to use vibrato in their playing. Even as vibrato became more accepted in vocal art music, many still considered it inappropriate and in poor taste for winds. The earliest saxophone studies and method books, including publications by Kastner (1844), Cokken (1846), Hartmann (1846), L. Mayeur (1867), Klosé (1877), and A. Mayeur (1896) made no mention of vibrato. Carl Weber, in his 1897 method described the ideal saxophone sound as “unwavering.” Even in the early part of the twentieth century vibrato was still not associated with the saxophone. In 1917 Ben Vereecken published his Foundation to Saxophone Playing, one of the most important pedagogical studies of its time. In the section titled “What to Practice,” he stated: “Avoid the ‘tremolo’ or ‘vibrato’ style of playing. See that your tone is absolutely clear and pure.” Later he wrote, “Avoid letting the tone tremble by the loosening of the lips.” As late as 1920, George Koehler’s book instructed to “avoid any semblance to tremolo or vibrato.”

In Europe there is one person who undoubtedly influenced the development of concert saxophone vibrato more than any other. This of course was Marcel Mule. Mule began playing saxophone at age seven, but also seriously studied violin in his early years. He later claimed that his studies on the violin taught him a great deal about tonal
homogeneity, virtuosity, and articulation, concepts he helped bring to the concert saxophone world. One may assume that Mule developed his saxophone vibrato style from the violin, an instrument that was already developing a reputation for extensive vibrato use during the time of his childhood. But according to Mule himself, this was not the case. Mule claimed that his vibrato all started with jazz.
Even though Mule had studied the saxophone since c.1908, he did not hear jazz played on the instrument until the early 1920s. When he first heard saxophonists play this new type of music he found the tone remarkably strange, even calling the rapid vibrato many early jazz players utilized “dreadful.” Anyone familiar with the vibrato style of French-Creole saxophonist Sidney Bechet, widely regarded as the most influential jazz saxophonist of the 1920s, can probably understand Mule’s bewilderment. Nevertheless, Mule was inspired to develop his own vibrato.
In 1923 Mule began performing with jazz groups around Paris for extra income. He described himself as a decent jazz player, but not a great one because he did not “favor the choruses.” Later on he admitted that jazz taught him about the saxophone’s power and versatility. Eventually Mule was able to succeed in finding the undulating vibrato characteristic of the local jazz musicians. Though Mule had learned this new technique, he still played classical music without vibrato, treating the instrument much like a clarinet. It was in 1928 that everything changed. Mule had been performing with the Opéra Comique in Paris for a short time when they were scheduled to play a ballet
titled Evolution, by Edouard L’Enfant. L’Enfant was a pianist-composer who dabbled in jazz and liked to include pieces such as foxtrots and blues in his compositions. There happened to be a saxophone solo in the ballet with the composer’s instruction “very vibrant.” After being unsatisfied with Mule’s interpretation of the solo on the first playthrough during rehearsal, L’Enfant asked Mule to play the solo like he had heard him play jazz. Mule feared using his jazz vibrato would lead to a “scandal,” but obliged the composer anyway. Much to his surprise, the performance received exceptionally high praise from his peers, some who even suggested he always play concert music in that manner.
From that point forward, Mule used vibrato in all of his playing. It is apparent that he considered the day he initially used vibrato with the Opéra Comique as somewhat of a turning point in his career."
 
altissimo said:
some who even suggested he always play concert music in that manner.

he considered the day he initially used vibrato with the Opéra Comique as somewhat of a turning point in his career."
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some would say "what an appropriate setting for such an act of musical comedy "

I myself wouldnt, of course... but some would.
 
I have read the five page conversation with great interest, classical tenor saxophone sound is a very interesting topic.

I have recently found some very nice classical tenorsax playing on youtube:

French TV programme about the classical saxophone in France, where Guy Lacour plays a short excerpt of Ravel's Bolero (00:02:06):
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tngaBiZJE_o&t=1814s


Arno Bornkamp plays "Fingers":
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2HuTXk8-7w


Coming from a jazz background with a preference for the tenor sound of John Coltrane, Stan Getz, Jan Garbarek and many others, I feel that Lacour and Bornkamp in the examples above display a strong classical tenor sound. They do not sound like they are playing classical tenor with an altosax sound conception. Nor do they have much (if any) jazz tenor sound conception in their sound. All in all I find these players' sound conception very pleasing.

BTW: Frederick Hemke plays very nice tenor saxophone on his "Music for tenor saxophone" recording.
 

Similar threads... or are they? Maybe not but they could be worth reading anyway 😀

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