Playing the saxophone Classical sound on tenor

[Nick Wyver]

Well, someone has to.

 

[jbtsax]

I'll see that and raise you:

 

[BigMartin]

I'll see that and raise you:

Strictly speaking, isn't that a C mel rather than a tenor?

 

[nigeld]

Well, someone has to.

Modern virtuoso classical tenor.
But if we're talking multiphonics, this guy has really got it sussed.

 

[Nick Wyver]

Pity the poor mother. Octuplets!!!!! 🙂

 

[jbtsax]

Strictly speaking, isn't that a C mel rather than a tenor?

Ahem---a "C tenor". 🙂

 

[David Roach]

you may not find anything in there that's new to you, but I found it useful and the few hours I spent last night listening to some of the players mentioned in this thesis indicates that the 'heavy vibrato' school of playing seems to be dying out and the younger generation are more concerned with accurately interpreting the composers intent

It has been inevitable with the advent of pieces for the saxophone like the Berio Sequenza and Stockhausen's In Freundshaft, and any number of late 20th, early 21st C pieces that players would really have to think very carefully about the use of vibrato. It would make a nonsense of the Berio Sequenza for instance because oscillation is very clearly and careful indicated at exactly the moments he wanted it; the player is not at liberty to add it willy-nilly. Vibrato has become amongst modern players (at least the ones I know) a tool in the arsenal, much as double-tonguing, growling, flutter etc etc are. In a piece by Nyman or Graham Fitkin for instance, there is freedom, but it is also understood that the constant wobble of previous generations is not called for. Guy Lacour was a great player but very firmly in a past generation. Arno Bornkamp is a terrific player, but resides somewhere between the generations to my ear. Claude Delangle, Raaf Hekkema, Vincent David are all outstanding virtuosi who have understood the modern necessity to use vibrato much more carefully than in previous generations.

 

[Jazzaferri]

Hehe @David Roach for a second I misread Guy Lacour for Guy Lombardo ROFL

 

[David Roach]

Hehe @David Roach for a second I misread Guy Lacour for Guy Lombardo ROFL

Who? 😉

 

[saxyjt]

Arno Bornkamp plays "Fingers":

Well, someone has to.

You guys have very interesting readings, oops, listenings, but they are too strong or hard for me.

I probably need a few more decades of musical education to reach that level of understanding... 😵

 

[kevgermany]

You guys have very interesting readings, oops, listenings, but they are too strong or hard for me.

I probably need a few more decades of musical education to reach that level of understanding... 😵

I'm with you. Life's too short. (warning, mixed metaphors ahead) But it does us good when someone opens our horizons like this. Even if it just tells us to go a different way.

 

[David Roach]

'Defining Classical Tenor Saxophone: performer identity, performance practice and contemporary repertoire' - Peter Leung
https://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/bitstream/2123/15704/1/Leung_APPROVED COPY_thesis.pdf

Hohoho, what a great piece of research. I skimmed through the technique bit at the beginning preferring to read the players' comments and I am overjoyed to see the depths to which we concur!

“The main thing I would like to tell my students, one of the main things,
is to not play alto on the tenor, which is what most people worldwide in
the classical world do, they play alto on the tenor. They squeeze the
reed, they do not play with an open throat.” (Mellema)

“It’s often times the instrument people pick up under duress, somebody
says “ok you’re on tenor” … and so there’s that automatic thing that it
just doesn’t work.” (Horch)

“[The style] should be more jazzy I think, not with a jazzy sound, but the
approach of embouchure … it needs subtone playing … it’s not literal
subtone… [but] it goes very much towards subtone, the jaw goes down
and back a little bit, the tongue goes really high and the lips are really
round and as fat as you can make them.” (Mellema)

Two of the participants are well known to me personally. Kyle Horch is a contemporary of mine and we have worked together in studios many times. Andy Scott is a good friend (I was in the Apollo for a while) and I taught him briefly in the late 80s/early 90s.

What a great pleasure to see agreement in these fundamentals reached by a host of top classical tenor players! It really has made my day!

 

[jbtsax]

I have read elsewhere about the back portion of the tongue being kept high touching the back molars. I have experimented a bit with this but fail to see the advantage. To me it seems that this would restrict the flexibility of "voicing" notes.

 

[David Roach]

I have read elsewhere about the back portion of the tongue being kept high touching the back molars. I have experimented a bit with this but fail to see the advantage. To me it seems that this would restrict the flexibility of "voicing" notes.

Your Joe Allard called it 'reverse coning' (cone-ing), ie creating a reduced aperture between the back of the tongue and the rear upper teeth through which the air is pressurised before it reaches the mouthpiece. I'm surprised that, as a teacher, you have not come across this technique before now, because without it altissimo and the palm key notes of the soprano are virtually impossible to achieve without severe biting, perhaps you are using it quite naturally without knowing it? It is also the basis upon which the French school denote the tonguing sylable 'tu', not the long English/American 'too', but the higher sound of the French 'tu'. The advantage is that it still leaves the front of the tongue free to move but most importantly avoids the situation where the throat is permanently narrowed (closed throat), with all the tension that that would entail, in order to provide the very pressurisation the back of the tongue should be performing.

Voicing happens further back, in the larynx, so the two things are somewhat separate. Naturally movement in the larynx can affect the back of the tongue, which is why double tonguing at the top of the soprano particularly is difficult. It can be easier to start an altissimo note with a quasi-glottal stop to avoid movement of the back of the tongue (as discussed in the thread here: John Harle's "The Saxophone" )

I think one of the most clear and impressive examples of voicing happening correctly, whilst the embouchure remains virtually static is this clip of the estimable Ralph Bowen, who incidentally studied for a time with Deffayet. Not exactly classical tenor playing, but do watch it nonetheless!!

 

[jbtsax]

Your Joe Allard called it 'reverse coning' (cone-ing), ie creating a reduced aperture between the back of the tongue and the rear upper teeth through which the air is pressurised before it reaches the mouthpiece.

You may want to rethink that statement because the "venturei principle" states otherwise. Forcing the air through the restricted area between the back of the tongue and the roof of the mouth increases the speed of the air---not the air pressure.

I'm surprised that, as a teacher, you have not come across this technique before now, because without it altissimo and the palm key notes of the soprano are virtually impossible to achieve without severe biting, perhaps you are using it quite naturally without knowing it?

Of course I am familiar with the raising the back of the tongue to produce overtones and notes in the altissimo register, but that is not the same as having the back of the tongue "fixed" in the upper position pressing against the back top molars.

Voicing happens further back, in the larynx, so the two things are somewhat separate. Naturally movement in the larynx can affect the back of the tongue, which is why double tonguing at the top of the soprano particularly is difficult.

I would argue that the size and shape inside the oral cavity which is controlled by the position of the tongue and the vertical position of the jaw/opening of the teeth is also an important component in "voicing". Telling a student to say or sing "Ahh" on a low pitch to help the response in the low register may open the larynx, but it also lowers the back of the tongue and increases the size of the oral cavity as well.

 

[Guenne]

Reading "The Saxophone" it seems far more complex than that.....

I have found that keeping the tongue "high" (almost like thinking a k or g) helps to separate jaw and tongue, and helps to just use the very front part for articulation without changing the airstream.

And there a some other effects of a tongue that is higher and more back (I dare to say "positive", which is always a relative thing).
John Harle encourages to try playing an embouchure that is like double lip, but with top teeth on the MPC (tongue back and up, lips stretching and drawn back to the teeth).

Cheers

 

[David Roach]

You may want to rethink that statement because the "venturei principle" states otherwise. Forcing the air through the restricted area between the back of the tongue and the roof of the mouth increases the speed of the air---not the air pressure.

Technically, I stand corrected.
It's the effect of the of raising the tongue that is important - practice comes before theory. Raising the tongue accelerates the airspeed, same as squeezing a water hose to get an accelerated stream. Put your hand in front of your mouth, blow, raise the back of the tongue and you can feel the difference.

Of course I am familiar with the raising the back of the tongue to produce overtones and notes in the altissimo register, but that is not the same as having the back of the tongue "fixed" in the upper position pressing against the back top molars.

Well, I suppose if you play foo-foo (i.e. a relaxed old style jazzy fashion) all time (and there's nothing wrong with that) I guess you might not want to accelerate your air-stream constantly, but we are discussing classical saxophone here aren't we?

I would argue that the size and shape inside the oral cavity which is controlled by the position of the tongue and the vertical position of the jaw/opening of the teeth is also an important component in "voicing". Telling a student to say or sing "Ahh" on a low pitch to help the response in the low register may open the larynx, but it also lowers the back of the tongue and increases the size of the oral cavity as well.

I think this is not entirely correct. Manipulation of the larynx has a much greater effect on pitch that waggling your tongue around - unless you are playing in the altissmo or the very top of the soprano - try keeping everything stable on a long note and waggle your tongue around, it has little effect on pitch. Naturally opening and closing the jaw has a huge effect, but we're not discussing vibrato at this very moment are we?

It is entirely unnecessary to sing "Ahh" to get a good response in the low register, in fact raising the back of the tongue helps to keep the tone and response constant from top to bottom because it replaces the impulse to close the larynx that beginners tend to use instead as a crutch (presumably why you are getting them to sing an 'open' sound). If you teach someone to open everything up for the low notes, what are they going to do at the top of the instrument? The whole of the vocal cavity will have to change to provide a fast enough air stream and appropriate resonant cavity to produce the palm key tones (or even altissimo) successfully. I'm not saying it's impossible, but imagine playing a fast leap from low C to top F, especially on soprano, with your throat wide and your tongue low - the amount of movement involved would be huge with all the concomitant change in timbre. If however you tongue is high, providing a fast air-speed at all times then a small change in the larynx is all that is needed for that big leap. In other words the high tongue creates an environment where all tones are possible with the minimum of change.

The raised back of the tongue is very good for classical music. Not that sub-tone isn't useful in classical music, but it is just another tool.

 

[jbtsax]

So how would you instruct a beginning student who when slurring down a C scale beginning on middle C gets down to and E or D and the note jumps an octave to the first overtone? How does one "open the larynx" while keeping the back of the tongue high and immobile?

 

[Guenne]

So how would you instruct a beginning student who when slurring down a C scale beginning on middle C gets down to and E or D and the note jumps an octave to the first overtone?

Practice the reed fan, hehe.
Seriously, if you are aware of the fact you are dealing with length, width and depth inside the conical bore and your airstream has to adapt it's angle and direction it is relatively easy to manage and to teach.

Cheers

 

[Jazzaferri]

I am really enjoying this thread even though I do not play classical.

I have never taught sax( haven't the patience for ab initio) just coaching in improvisation ideas and phrasing. I use a high narrowed tongue position to create a focussed air stream to get p and pp sounds down low without biting Its the only way to do it playing an 11* mpce with #3 reeds without biting my lip off.

While Bernoulli's principle does apply here in that there will be a pressure drop in the constricted area of the high tongue ....... beyond the tongue is an area of lower (atmospheric) pressure and it takes time and distance for that focussed air stream to dissipate. Think of a shop air blaster @jbtsax Lungs are compressor, throat is the hose, arched tongue is the nozzle. 🙂