Playing the saxophone Classical sound on tenor

[Jazzaferri]

Maybe this could be a topic for another thread. I thought I was particularly intolerant, but I am driven to a frenzy by heavy metal and aggressive electric blues so that I really want to hit someone or get away.

Electronic Dance Music with heavy bass lines makes me tense and annoyed, as does the assumption that public places and public events have to be filled with loud and inane recorded music and that anyone who objects is a killjoy.

Off to lie down now ...

Rhys

Why would you listen to it then.

imo If music doesn't speak to you it doesn't need a judgement on either the listener or player. Its just not connecting. If one is being forced to listen to something, then speak up and ask for a change. If one is there voluntarily, politely leave. I have walked out of a number of concerts after a time when the music wasn't working for me. I always try to leave as discretely as possible.

There is more than enough judgement going around in this ole world. We really don't need to add any more.

Someone once gave me a good piece of advice on listening..."try to listen with the ears of a child"...while the comment was about listening to our recordings ...it applies to all music listening.

 

[kevgermany]

Someone once gave me a good piece of advice on listening..."try to listen with the ears of a child"...while the comment was about listening to our recordings ...it applies to all music listening.

Love it.

And yes, I agree with your comments about music not working/leave politely. But we also like to discuss what we like/dislike, to do this means some listening to the dislikes.

 

[David Roach]

If I were to perform this piece, this is the style of vibrato I would try to emulate on the saxophone.

There are two things specifically about Yo-Yo Ma's vibrato that I particularly like (amongst the many other things I hugely admire in his playing).

Firstly, that there is a slight, sometimes almost imperceptible, part at the beginning of each note that is not vibrato'd. For me, this stabilises the pitch and provides a sort of 'terra-firma' so that aurally, we know where the heart of the pitch is.

Secondly the oscillation of timbre is as great as the oscillation of pitch. This is of fundamental importance to a natural sounding vibrato. For me, in classical terms, when pitch over comes timbre in vibrato then there begins a problem.( I remember an interview by Branford Marsalis where he said that although he loved the 'Bird with Strings' album, whenever Mitch Miller played the oboe, it made him want to vomit. I resonate to this rather outspoken statement because I was a first study oboist at Music College; Mitch Miller's vibrato was very pitch-heavy, something that is not encouraged on the oboe for good reason.)

 

[brianr]

David, some great posts by you in this thread , which I find very insightful and thought provoking. thanks.

I had a great lesson with Benn Clatworthy a few weeks ago, and he gave me an absolute roasting about my vib.
Ive never heard so much swearing in my life. LOL.

he said (edited for decency ) something like 'youve had classical lessons and practiced vib with a metrome, havent you? "
"Yes," said I like a 6 year old with a hand caught in the biscuit tin. we laughed and he swore some more!!

"Lose the @#$#$%^%^&* vib" was the response.

Anyway, he was right. it was a great lesson and has provoked much thought about tone and vibrato.

so, this thread is very timely. thanks again

 

[Alice]

David, some great posts by you in this thread , which I find very insightful and thought provoking. thanks.

I had a great lesson with Benn Clatworthy a few weeks ago, and he gave me an absolute roasting about my vib.
Ive never heard so much swearing in my life. LOL.

he said (edited for decency ) something like 'youve had classical lessons and practiced vib with a metrome, havent you? "
"Yes," said I like a 6 year old with a hand caught in the biscuit tin. we laughed and he swore some more!!

"Lose the @#$#$%^%^&* vib" was the response.

Anyway, he was right. it was a great lesson and has provoked much thought about tone and vibrato.

so, this thread is very timely. thanks again

Sounds like the Gordon Ramsey of music.

 

[brianr]

Sounds like the Gordon Ramsey of music.

I cant stand that man. I feel all his crap is just a falsehood, for the cameras.

Benn is very passionate and means every word. I had a great lesson, but I know some others who have taken a lesson from him, and didnt like his in your face approach.

 

[Alice]

I cant stand that man. I feel all his crap is just a falsehood, for the cameras.

Benn is very passionate and means every word. I had a great lesson, but I know some others who have taken a lesson from him, and didnt like his in your face approach.

I didn't mean that they were the same character... Just the style of language.
I've had riding instructors who have been a bit like that to people who can't ride and are just beginning.
But without the humour.
I don't have a problem with what sounds to me like a passionate response.

 

[David Roach]

........ Here is one of my favorite pieces by Alfred Reed.

Very pretty playing, but too much vibrato for my liking. I really do not mean to be contentious and 'each to his or her own' is of paramount importance, but...to my mind this player's vibrato is at times distracting and disturbs the lines of the MUSIC.

 

[David Roach]

Anyway, back to the subject of this thread: TENOR!

 

[trimmy]

I had a great lesson with Benn Clatworthy

Totally forgot he was playing Fredriks 🙁 gutted

 

[saxyjt]

Anyway, back to the subject of this thread: TENOR!

Right!

So, being from Modena, was Luciano Pavarotti found of Balsamic vinegar?

Since the saxophone's tone is often compared to human voice, I guess using vibrato is an attempt to mimic the great opera singers who use it almost all the time.

Just a thought. 😉

 

[Alice]

Right!

So, being from Modena, was Luciano Pavarotti found of Balsamic vinegar?

Since the saxophone's tone is often compared to human voice, I guess using vibrato is an attempt to mimic the great opera singers who use it almost all the time.

Just a thought. 😉

Yes... The human voice and also the cello and oboe ...

 

[David Roach]

Right!
..........Since the saxophone's tone is often compared to human voice, I guess using vibrato is an attempt to mimic the great opera singers who use it almost all the time.

Just a thought. 😉

I think it's an accurate thought, but the idea is a problem. Why do we need to imitate anything or anybody? The sax and even some of it's champions have all too easily accepted and promoted the idea that it is 'like' something else. I say that's demeaning and needs to be dispensed with!

Sax means Sax! (spot the topical miss-quote!)

 

[jbtsax]

I think it's an accurate thought, but the idea is a problem. Why do we need to imitate anything or anybody? The sax and even some of it's champions have all too easily accepted and promoted the idea that it is 'like' something else. I say that's demeaning and needs to be dispensed with!

Sax means Sax! (spot the topical miss-quote!)

Again, I strongly disagree. Trying to emulate the expressive quality of the voice, the cello, or the violin in no way demeans the saxophone. It brings the saxophone to the same level! A common and well accepted view is that the saxophone is an "extension" of the human voice. Even in the jazz idiom today, players of all instruments use the same idiomatic stylistic embellishments as the early jazz singers. This is where jazz style came from. Singers even turn that around when they "skat sing" and try to imitate the instruments with their voice.

@David Roach would like to ask for the names of some of the "European classical saxophonists"---especially on tenor whose concept of vibrato suits your taste. Links to recordings by these artists would be even better.

 

[David Roach]

@jbtsax , I'm not saying 'don't take from other instruments', perhaps you misunderstand me. What I'm saying is don't allow the the sax to be typecast as a solely imitative instrument, especially in classical music, because it weakens the instrument's personality.

I have heard so many especially tenor sax players say 'I want to sound like a 'cello': well I say 'fine, but broaden your horizons'. I think that the amount of players who have no clear vision of what the classical tenor sounds like clearly reflects this state of affairs. When did you ever hear an oboist say 'I want to sound like a ****** (fill the gap however you want)? Almost never, because the Oboe has a clear and defined tonal personality in our psyche, as does Cor Anglais (Eng. Hrn. to you), Bassoon, Banjo, Accordion etc. etc. The Sax needs to achieve that clarity; it's something we strove to do with London Saxophonic, to create an identity that was new in the popular imagination.

It's been compounded by the lack of repertoire for tenor and the lack of good teaching of the tenor as a classical instrument.

Concerning your query, I recommend you listen to the two clips I have provided in this thread already. I also recommend:

Kyle Horch, who has been Sax Professor at the Royal College in London has an excellent classical tenor approach. Andy Scott at the RNCM and Apollo Qtet is better than most because he really is a tenor player. The tenor player in The Habanera Quartet is excellent, as is the tenor player in Christophe Grèzes Quartet (Christophe is the Mouthpiece and Reed Product Manager for Selmer).

and

I also really rate Jose Bañuls of the excellent Ferio Saxophone Quartet. Actually, his playing impressed me more than any other classical tenor player I have seen or heard, truly a 'tenor' player.

 

[Dibbs]

...London Saxophonic...

Did you play on Sax Pax for a Sax? I love that album.

 

[jbtsax]

@David Roach Actually I was hoping for one or more artists who have recorded one or more of the major works for the saxophone as a solo instrument to compare to the school of players I have in my collection of recordings. Perhaps you have made some recordings outside of being an orchestral player yourself of some of the major literature.

 

[David Roach]

@David Roach Actually I was hoping for one or more artists who have recorded one or more of the major works for the saxophone as a solo instrument to compare to the school of players I have in my collection of recordings. Perhaps you have made some recordings outside of being an orchestral player yourself of some of the major literature.

I'm sure you can use Google and YouTube as well as I can. I have not recorded any classical solo works because the repertoire does not interest me and I am temperamentally better suited to chamber music. I am more interested in other things, but, as you can see I have strong views about the Tenor Sax in classical music, having bashed my head against that particular wall for many years 😉.

 

[David Roach]

Did you play on Sax Pax for a Sax? I love that album.

No, unfortunately not, it's a great album, but I did play on the 2nd London Saxophonic Moondog album with London Brass and did some gigs with him.

 

[David Roach]

@jbtsax Talking of Moondog, here's a link to a YouTube of 'New Amsterdam'. Andy Scott of the Apollo Qtet plays the first statement.