Playing the saxophone Classical sound on tenor

[Tenor Viol]

Excess of vibrato became a stylistic thing of the C20th for both voices and instruments, especially strings. Part of it is to do with making the sound carry in large auditoria where the sound is unamplified. But I think it's horrible when it's overdone e.g. old-style coloratura operatic sopranos singing Verdi (we'll draw a veil over my comment made some years ago describing the fact that I don't like wobbling sopranos....).

The original purpose of vibrato was to add colour - it was not a continuous thing. I was taught as a singer to sing 'straight' with no 'wobble'. Longer notes, especially at slower tempi, need to change/evolve/develop - they shouldn't stay the same as it become a boring flat sound.

There are various ways of colouring notes: you can change the dynamic, such as swelling through the note, or you can have a messa di voce which does <> i.e. swell and dimishishes within the duration of the note. You can 'decorate' the note by adding ornamentation (tastefully!) and you can add vibrato. Vibrato should be used sparingly to add colour and it should vary in tempo - the speed of the vibrato is rarely constant and can change, in the way that the speed of a trill can change.

Trouble is, it became fashionable to have continuous vibrato around early 1900s, and because of recording, we've become glued to it. Other then fashionable tendencies such as excessive use of portamento have fall into desuetude.

 

[David Roach]

I think vibrato is a matter of personal taste as well as contemporary fashion. ...............

I agree.
I have a very definite physical reaction to peoples' sounds and vibrato. Some peoples' approach makes me feel good and some so bad I feel ill. It's something that I don't try much to control in my own playing because I would rather it was not contrived.

I have a real problem with the way many American classical saxophone players use vibrato, which to me is entirely out dated and unnatural. Even die-hard French players don't use vibrato that way any more. Their vibrato reminds me of players in the 20s and 30s where vibrato was a constant fixture in players' sounds, beginning as soon as the note started and continuing at the same rate and depth throughout. I actually don't mind that approach, but in modern players I find myself asking WHY? What does it achieve? And the only answer I can come up with is that the player is actually trying to attract attention to themselves in and unnatural way. No orchestral string, oboe, flute, bassoon etc etc player would behave in that way nowadays, so why do sax players? I can't listen to it.

 

[nigeld]

I like vibrato!

 

[jbtsax]

With regards to classical saxophone playing, to have one's own taste in style and vibrato is understandable. All that really needs to be said is that a particular artist or recording of a piece is "not to my taste" and leave it at that. To say that a particular style makes one physically sick, or to impugn the motives or character of another artist one doesn't care to emulate to me crosses the line of civility.

 

[Tenor Viol]

I agree - I think this is very much a personal taste thing. Personally, I dislike excessive vibrato with female opera singers, but that is a generalisation - it can be done well and it can suit the music or the performance. I do know people who love that full-on vibrato sound.

One man's meat, and other aphorisms.

 

[kevgermany]

To say that a particular style makes one physically sick, or to impugn the motives or character of another artist one doesn't care to emulate to me crosses the line of civility.

Music has different effects on different people. And different degrees of effect. Some depresses me to the point I have to turn it off or leave the room. Trying to stay makes me want to run, screaming. Often it's things that others consider beautiful...

Similarly other pieces make me want to punch someone. While I haven't yet met anything that makes me physically sick, a certain smooth jazz sop player comes close.

 

[rhysonsax]

Similarly other pieces make me want to punch someone. While I haven't yet met anything that makes me physically sick, a certain smooth jazz sop player comes close.

Maybe this could be a topic for another thread. I thought I was particularly intolerant, but I am driven to a frenzy by heavy metal and aggressive electric blues so that I really want to hit someone or get away.

Electronic Dance Music with heavy bass lines makes me tense and annoyed, as does the assumption that public places and public events have to be filled with loud and inane recorded music and that anyone who objects is a killjoy.

Off to lie down now ...

Rhys

 

[brianr]

While I haven't yet met anything that makes me physically sick, a certain smooth jazz sop player comes close.

I felt the same about that guy, but then I read a story that made me feel sorry for him.

He actually cant play the saxophone. he used to when he was younger, and got reasonably proficient.
But he developed an uncontrolable vibrato, so gave up playing sax.
Nowadays, he plays a kazoo...................... yes..... $ 5 dollars from wall mart............... a kazoo !!

I had been wondering for years how anyone could have such an appalling tone, and when I read that it all fell in to place.

But, he has an image to sustain, so holds a soprano and mimes during live gigs.
Look at some you tube clips and you will see the miming gliches. very funny.

i bought a kazoo to see how he did it. Its easy.
My wife tells me I sound great on it. I think she is just being nice.
But I do sound like the "G man" .... honest.
I recorded myself...... terrible..................I could pass for him anytime.

And he has been bald for 30 years now. the curls ????.........................A wig....................

So, dont feel anger towards him. He needs pity and sympathy.

 

[David Roach]

With regards to classical saxophone playing, to have one's own taste in style and vibrato is understandable. All that really needs to be said is that a particular artist or recording of a piece is "not to my taste" and leave it at that. To say that a particular style makes one physically sick, or to impugn the motives or character of another artist one doesn't care to emulate to me crosses the line of civility.

I think I can safely presume that this comment was aimed at my earlier post.

@jbtsax , I did not say that some tones and vibratos make me sick, I said that they make me feel ill. That is a statement of fact. I have an unpleasant physical reaction in the pit of my stomach when I hear certain players, perhaps surprisingly, not the ones one might immediately think of. Also, please note that I did not make that comment directly about any particular artist's playing, but as a general expression of how deeply I am effected by music, particularly certain players who I have not named (and will not).

I suppose, since we had been discussing Houlik's approach, you presumed that my comments were directly aimed at his playing. Not really. I actually do feel that the American school of classical sax playing (in general based on what I have heard) is in the main living in the past, rather in the way that the Japanese school is too. I personally much prefer the European school which is now cooler and calmer and more naturalistic. I say this because I have spent years playing professionally in Symphony Orchestras in London and it is my considered opinion that excessive vibrato is upsetting to the surrounding ensemble, not only unnecessary but downright rude.

I do not believe that I impugned anyone. Many artists deliberately draw attention to themselves for good and not-so-good reasons, but in the position of a soloist a certain amount of 'listen to ME' is expected and indeed desirable. I posed the question 'why' and you seem to have chosen not to attempt an answer.

 

[David Roach]

To counterbalance my feelings above about American classical sax players, I would like to say that I hugely admire Timothy Allistair's playing, although I have not heard him on tenor. I also enjoyed the clip @jbtsax posted of the New Century Quartet, who seem to have a broader sound than some quartets.

 

[jbtsax]

One of the driving forces behind the "American school" of classical saxophone playing has been the distinguished career of Eugene Rousseau who was a student of, and strongly influenced by Marcel Mule who could be considered "the father of classical saxophone". The amazing number of recordings and live performances all over the world by Rousseau speaks to the fact that those who do not care for his style of playing are certainly in a minority. The "why" is simply because he was exposed to that style of playing early in his musical development and that helped to form his "concept" of a classical saxophone sound which has been passed on to his scores of gifted students. It became my concept as well listening to the classical saxophonists whom I admire and try to emulate.

 

[David Roach]

One of the driving forces behind the "American school" of classical saxophone playing has been the distinguished career of Eugene Rousseau who was a student of, and strongly influenced by Marcel Mule who could be considered "the father of classical saxophone". The amazing number of recordings and live performances all over the world by Rousseau speaks to the fact that those who do not care for his style of playing are certainly in a minority. The "why" is simply because he was exposed to that style of playing early in his musical development and that helped to form his "concept" of a classical saxophone sound which has been passed on to his scores of gifted students. It became my concept as well listening to the classical saxophonists whom I admire and try to emulate.

Thanks for this info @jbtsax . I've not listened greatly to Rousseau's playing, but of course he is hugely well known and I am very aware that he was highly influential as an adviser to Yamaha. The clip I posted previously of Bolero was performed on a Yamaha 62 tenor, an instrument I still regret selling, even though they can be a little lightweight in sound. I don't remember Rousseau as being overtly heavy in his vibrato, he seemed to be able to choose to use it or not. In fact wasn't he known as 'Mr Smooth' at one time? I actually do care for Rousseau's playing because I feel that it comes from a very genuine place in his musicality. I do not feel the same about some other players despite their similar approach (let's leave it at that).

Concerning Mule, who I have only listened to in passing, I came across this quote on Sax on the Web some time ago:

"I was shocked to discover the following quote assessing "Le Maitre," Marcel Mule: "a good player, but not a good teacher - and a bad musician."

Had the source been a Rascher disciple, or a violinist (😉) I perhaps would not have been surprised. But it is attributed to Jean-Marie Londeix on page 30 of Segell's The Devil's Horn. Later, page 252, Segell touches briefly on the schism between the traditionalists Mule and Deffayet on the one hand and the modernist Londeix on the other...."

This is an amusing snippet, and of course one must always take the bitching of one player about another with a pinch of salt, especially where Londeix and Deffayet were concerned (being of opposing French schools). However, it's interesting to posit that sometimes the circumstances that lead one musician to become a 'holy cow' and another to go largely - in the grand scheme of things - unrecognised, can be entirely serendipitous. By which I mean that fame is not necessarily an indication of superior talent even in the classical music world......

 

[jbtsax]

. . .and of course one must always take the bitching of one player about another with a pinch of salt,

Finally something upon which we can agree. 😉

By which I mean that fame is not necessarily an indication of superior talent even in the classical music world......

But it obviously is in the case of Eugene Rousseau.

 

[David Roach]

......But it obviously is in the case of Eugene Rousseau.

Yes, there is definitely something most appealing about his playing. A very nice man I would imagine.

 

[Tenor Viol]

It's a moot point in the classical world how some soloists manage to acquire fame and fortune and others do not. There are certainly cases of soloists that you do wonder why 'they' are so famous and other, better, players are not.

Definitely a case of being int he right place etc.

One of the things that amuses me is the amateur singers I encounter in choirs and the semi-pro soloists we engage for concerts - many are vastly better musicians than some well-known celebrity singers...

 

[jbtsax]

If I were to perform this piece, this is the style of vibrato I would try to emulate on the saxophone.

 

[saxyjt]

Definitely a case of being int he right place etc.

When I think about it now, it saddens me that I was not into music at all when I was in regular contact with one of the legends of modern classical music, ie Herbert Von Karajan who had Daniel Deffayet as his saxophonist of choice. Of course I doubt he would have been interested to discuss anything musical with an amateur like me, but I crossed path with that man, so you can't help wondering... What if?

My only interest back then was in his fabulous sailing boat and the great sailors that we had the opportunity to 'play' with in racing conditions with a few other serious opponents. Music? Well, we had a Roxy Music tape that I can remember of. Nothing else comes to mind really...

 

[Guenne]

If I were to perform this piece, this is the style of vibrato I would try to emulate on the saxophone.

I hope it has not already been posted...

OT:
While I find his Bari playing more impressive, and sounding more like a cello:

Cheers

 

[brianr]

a few days ago, when this thread started I spent a little time on You tube listening to classical tenor players, just to get a feel about what was going on .

Funnily, I found this performance. of the Swan.

Its just not for me. I find the vibrato excessive and it is there on every note, for all of the duration of the note .
For me its a real turn off.

reading the comments on that you tube page, many people love it though.

Just not for me, im afraid, although I can appreciate the skill level involved.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lkcan0X5VA


Edit. great minds think alike.
i was typing when you posted.

 

[jbtsax]

a few days ago, when this thread started I spent a little time on You tube listening to classical tenor players, just to get a feel about what was going on .

Funnily, I found this performance. of the Swan.

Its just not for me. I find the vibrato excessive and it is there on every note, for all of the duration of the note .
For me its a real turn off.

reading the comments on that you tube page, many people love it though.

Just not for me, im afraid, although I can appreciate the skill level involved.

Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion however, I would encourage those who have limited experience with classical saxophone playing and literature to keep an open mind and explore the genre---especially if you are a saxophone player. Perhaps the most amazing attribute of this instrument we have chosen to play and enjoy is its versatility. One can only appreciate this versatility by taking in great performances in every style and genre. Here is one of my favorite pieces by Alfred Reed.