Playing Learning to Read v Playing by ear

[BigMartin]

[AMIN EDIT] These posts have been moved from the thread:

http://cafesaxophone.com/threads/playing-backwards.16924/

I don't play sax from written music Martin, which is partly why I'm sceptical. The only way I could play music backwards would be to read it backwards, I couldn't do it by ear. I can read music by the way, I just didn't learn the sax (or the fiddle) that way.

That's your choice to make, of course, but I don't understand why you'd want to restrict yourself in that way.

I think that if I learned to play tunes backwards by looking at written music, what I would learn would be to play tunes backwards by looking at written music. I don't believe this would help me much in doing what I want to do, which is to play what I want to play, forwards.

What you would learn is familarity with playing certain combinations of notes on the saxophone, in whatever order or rhythm you want to play them in.

 

[Bernie]

That's your choice to make, of course, but I don't understand why you'd want to restrict yourself in that way.

It doesn't restrict me. I know what I want to play, jazz standards, a bit of "modal" jazz, I learn by listening until I could sing the tune, then I play it on the instrument. I just don't have any need for written music.

What you would learn is familiarity with playing certain combinations of notes on the saxophone, in whatever order or rhythm you want to play them in.

You can do that without reference to written music.

 

[kevgermany]

Then the playing backwards won't work for you. But playing/learning the piece a few bars at a time from back to front would still probably help.

 

[jbtsax]

Folks who can't read music can play songs by ear that they have heard before. Folks who can read music can play songs they have heard before and those they haven't.

 

[aldevis]

Folks who can't read music can play songs by ear that they have heard before. Folks who can read music can play songs they have heard before and those they haven't.

And some people play music that nobody heard before. And (hopefully) nobody will again....

 

[Bernie]

. Folks who can read music can play songs they have heard before and those they haven't.

It does require a considerable investment of time and effort though to learn to read music well enough to play something you haven't heard before, and to play it well. You would want to know that that time and effort would be well spent. Does the learner in question want or need to play songs they haven't heard before? I've played music all my life, almost every day, and I've never felt that need.

I've said several times that I have more experience with traditional fiddle music than with jazz and the sax. If you see someone reading music at a traditional session you can be almost certain that they can't play properly. There are loads of people in this position. They tend to play every tune as if they hadn't heard it before.

Last week I went to my first ever jazz jam session, a session that has been put on by the local jazz co-op, intended for people (like me) who have little experience with playing jazz in public. What a great initiative, it was immensely enjoyable.

All the sax players apart from me were using written music. I was particularly struck by one tenor player. When we played the “head” of the tune he was reading from his sheet music. He sounded plodding, and he repeatedly made the same mistake with the timing, leaving out a couple of beats. Then it came to his turn to play a chorus. He stopped looking at the music, and immediately started to play far better, improvising fluently, and the mistake with the timing disappeared. It came straight back when we played the “head” again at the end.

 

[aldevis]

All the sax players apart from me were using written music. I was particularly struck by one tenor player. When we played the “head” of the tune he was reading from his sheet music. He sounded plodding, and he repeatedly made the same mistake with the timing, leaving out a couple of beats. Then it came to his turn to play a chorus. He stopped looking at the music, and immediately started to play far better, improvising fluently, and the mistake with the timing disappeared. It came straight back when we played the “head” again at the end.

I've seen this many times.
"Reading" is a wide concept. For example I play differently if I am reading chords, if I remember all of them or if I am ignoring them. All three approaches have advantages and disadvantages. I would not vouch for any of them as exclusive.
Also I god some jobs because I read (get your a** on stage and first-sight read those charts!), some other jobs because I can play by ear (get your a** on stage and play something!).

I like both.

 

[Colin the Bear]

It's much easier to improvise over a chord progression, written or heard, for a given melody, than it is to play it how it goes. You have to know the head to know it's being played wrong.

A little reading is a good thing and it doesn't take that long to get the basics. Fluent sight reading is another matter. I don't think I'll ever get there.

 

[Bernie]

Also I got some jobs because I read (get your a** on stage and first-sight read those charts!), some other jobs because I can play by ear (get your a** on stage and play something!).

If somebody was setting out to be a professional musician or to make a serious study of music, or even if they were just young, I would think it would be a great idea to learn to read music.

The other sax players at that session were not young, were not serious students of music, and were not destined to become professionals. In those circumstances, I think they would do a lot better if they put far more emphasis on learning to play by ear.

 

[ProfJames]

If somebody was setting out to be a professional musician or to make a serious study of music, or even if they were just young, I would think it would be a great idea to learn to read music.

The other sax players at that session were not young, were not serious students of music, and were not destined to become professionals. In those circumstances, I think they would do a lot better if they put far more emphasis on learning to play by ear.

There are many professional musicians who cannot read music

 

[Colin the Bear]

And some deaf ones.

 

[jbtsax]

There are many professional musicians who cannot read music

Stevie Wonder perhaps?

 

[Nick Wyver]

If you see someone reading music at a traditional session you can be almost certain that they can't play properly.

And you can be sure that there are plenty of "ear" players around sneering at the readers.

 

[Bernie]

And you can be sure that there are plenty of "ear" players around sneering at the readers.

I'm not sneering at anybody, I think it's a pity they didn't get better guidance though.

 

[Nick Wyver]

I'm not sneering at anybody, I think it's a pity they didn't get better guidance though.

Better guidance in what?

 

[kevgermany]

And some people play music that nobody heard before. And (hopefully) nobody will again....

Yes. Trouble is we'll never agree on who's never to be heard again.

 

[BigMartin]

The other sax players at that session were not young, were not serious students of music, and were not destined to become professionals. In those circumstances, I think they would do a lot better if they put far more emphasis on learning to play by ear.

OTOH, it sounds like they were better at improvising than they were at reading. If was in that position (I'm actually the opposite), I'd spend some time improving my reading skills first.

 

[Bernie]

Better guidance in what?

Better guidance about the nature of written music and its relationship to actual music, about the different ways of learning. The situation is particularly clear with traditional music, where learning by listening and imitation is absolutely essential and learning from written music is unnecessary and can be extremely counterproductive. But all the sax players at that beginners' jam session I mentioned would benefit from similar advice. They were all overly dependent on the written music.

 

[Bernie]

OTOH, it sounds like they were better at improvising than they were at reading. If was in that position (I'm actually the opposite), I'd spend some time improving my reading skills first.

The first thing I would suggest is that they learn to play the "head" of the tune by ear in the same way as they were improvising by ear.

 

[ProfJames]

What is "actual music"?