Tech/maintenance Why have pads had the same design for 150 years?

[skeller047]

There are 8 pages in this thread and it must have been said before, but the fact that no (major) manufacturer has introduced something (rather drastically) different suggests that there isn’t anything viable. I can’t believe that this is not looked into on a fairly regular basis - every 10/20 years? (Marked by new young whippersnappers joining the company).

A couple of years ago, Music Medic introduced the Neo Pad, which is self-leveling. This is not the first attempt at a self leveling pad, and I don’t know whether they are making any money on it. I’m unaware of any objective reviews of this pad though. The pad itself is actually the same as their standard pad, the only difference is the way it’s attached to the pad cup. There is another self leveling pad out there that is made of neoprene, but every review I’ve seen of it is at least somewhat negative.

I personally don’t think that leather pads are a bad solution. (Sure, they aren’t vegan, but neither am I.) Leather pads last a long time, several years, and do the job reasonably well. I think that a better solution might also involve some changes to saxophone key cups, and possibly tone holes, which means more expense for the musician.

And to be completely fair, the pads of today are vastly superior to those of 100 years ago. Advances in felt, better manufacturing, the addition of resonators, etc., all these things improved pad (and saxophone!) performance compared to the white lounge pillows of the 1920’s. But these are evolutionary changes, not revolutionary.

I am curious though 🙂 Leather pads do have shortcomings, and a new pad which addresses them while retaining the same level of playability (keywork feel and tonal response) might succeed in the marketplace. “Guaranteed no-stick and never-leak”…

 

[Pete Effamy]

A couple of years ago, Music Medic introduced the Neo Pad, which is self-leveling. This is not the first attempt at a self leveling pad, and I don’t know whether they are making any money on it. I’m unaware of any objective reviews of this pad though. The pad itself is actually the same as their standard pad, the only difference is the way it’s attached to the pad cup. There is another self leveling pad out there that is made of neoprene, but every review I’ve seen of it is at least somewhat negative.

I personally don’t think that leather pads are a bad solution. (Sure, they aren’t vegan, but neither am I.) Leather pads last a long time, several years, and do the job reasonably well. I think that a better solution might also involve some changes to saxophone key cups, and possibly tone holes, which means more expense for the musician.

And to be completely fair, the pads of today are vastly superior to those of 100 years ago. Advances in felt, better manufacturing, the addition of resonators, etc., all these things improved pad (and saxophone!) performance compared to the white lounge pillows of the 1920’s. But these are evolutionary changes, not revolutionary.

I am curious though 🙂 Leather pads do have shortcomings, and a new pad which addresses them while retaining the same level of playability (keywork feel and tonal response) might succeed in the marketplace. “Guaranteed no-stick and never-leak”…

No stick, no leak -

Sure, the holy grail. Personally I’d be quite happy with the no stick - as it can be a really persistent problem and in some cases can be worse than a leak. If we keep our horn well-maintained, it does tend to stay leak-free for a while. The worse thing is the small leaks that creep in, making you question your technique.

I always love to hear Steve Howard saying “blimey, what’s going on here”, as it means that I’m not as bad as I feared 🫣

 

[Pete Thomas]

Sure, they aren’t vegan, but neither am I

Nor me. But I get the feeling that more and more people are. Being vegan has at least three aspects:

• Not wanting to harm animals
• Care for the environment/sustainability/climate
• Health

I can only see these concerns rising as time goes by. I'm not vegan but have cut down on certain types of meat/fish for at least two of those reasons.

I think that a better solution might also involve some changes to saxophone key cups, and possibly tone holes,

This is a great point (and addressed by @DavidUK 's aspirations).

It could even be a reason why development is slow - companies who make pads are relatively small and are not also manufacturers of saxophones. Pisoni, Musicmedic, Zhen Hao - can't think of any more off hand. Any development they do is based on using the pads on a flawed system (the woodwind instrument).

Guaranteed no-stick and never-leak”…

So unless the flawed system is also redesigned, this is a very difficult ask.

Plus the only realistic testing is to fit them on a saxophone and have it played by a human being for a long time. Any simulated tests would need to take into account that a saxophone is used by humans and not always treated with appropriate care so keycups and other mechanisms can easily go out of whack. Compare this to a much easier system to test, e.g. an engine gasket. (Having said that, I liked David's idea of putting them through a was/rinse cycle - but this would only test one aspect, ie durability, not effectiveness for their purpose)

Pads are constantly subjected to hostile atmospheric conditions like human breath and crowded bars. At least there may be very few smoke filled rooms these days - I wonder if the presumed air improvement of venues has meant less pad sticking?

 

[Woodpad]

I don’t understand what this means. Surely a big enough USP that was effectively communicated could affect the trade (manufacturers and techs) hugely.

Short story to illustrate this point: Dyson couldn't sell his invention, with a major USP, to the industry so he had to make it himself. This is typical for a cash cow market. The USP has to be very big and understandable.

 

[DavidUK]

Re: Neo Pads from MM. I bought one, interested to see how the collaboration with Jim Schmidt had worked.

Jim's pads, one of which I bought, are self levelling and have a firm metallic covering on a felt base.
I installed one and did a video (not published) of how the pad flops around in between a key opening and closing. This means each time you actuate a key the pad has to self level on closing causing a double action.

The Neo pad differs in that it has a leather covering and the pad has a ball on its back with a tiny pin/spigot off it to keep it from rotating inside the corresponding socket which is glued into the cup. This spigot fits in a groove in the socket and prevents multiple seat impressions caused by rotation.

So the Neo seems to be a hybrid of Jim's original design. He wasn't worried, he told me, by rotation in his original design with the metallic covering as this spreads wear over more of the pads surface, given that cups are almost always non-concentric to tone holes.
However, the Neo's "back to leather" design means rotation isn't desirable so I can see why they added the spigot. Good design? Well... no. Once again the pad ball quickly gets loose in its socket and flops around. When I say quickly I mean within a few minutes of my testing. So the Neo pad suffers the same double action, needing to reset its level to the tone hole on each closure. I tried to think of a way they could overcome this. A tighter socket perhaps? But it's not really my problem. However I quickly dismissed the Neo pad as just a gimmick for those who don't mind a slightly delayed seal on their pads when they play.

Rotation was also an issue with my neoprene pads. I solved this with a "self healing" material where an unwanted seat impression would disappear after 24 hours. Plus mine don't flop around as the magnet's strength holds them in position. Rotation is therefore restricted to that caused by removal and replacement, mostly by curious owners, but otherwise by replacement if they were ever to wear out or be damaged. Also notable is that the majority of my pads require no disassembly to replace, just a pair of tweezers.
Note that I use neoprene and neodymium magnets in my system - MM grabbed the "Neo" name, how very dare they, but I have a better one so don't worry!

 

[DavidUK]

Short story to illustrate this point: Dyson couldn't sell his invention, with a major USP, to the industry so he had to make it himself. This is typical for a cash cow market. The USP has to be very big and understandable.

But Dyson's vacuum cleaner is crap. We have one. £599 for something that rarely works.
That's my issue. Bringing a product to market when it has shortcomings, like the Neo pad.
I'd rather not market it at all BUT getting it perfect might take a lifetime, or may indeed be impossible.

 

[mizmar]

Short story to illustrate this point

I live Business fables.
For every "Jobs developed his revolutionary idea in his folks garage, and Apple was born" there's a hundred "John developed his revolutionary idea in his folks garage, where he still lives while cleaning pools" who doesn't appear in the pages of the Harvard Business Review

 

[Targa]

I took it that the Dyson product referred to was his wind up radio which was welcomed in many areas across the world.

 

[rhysonsax]

I took it that the Dyson product referred to was his wind up radio which was welcomed in many areas across the world.

Wasn’t the wind up radio Trevor Baylis ?

Dyson did invent / develop the Ballbarrow - I remember seeing that on Tomorrow’s World.

Rhys

 

[Targa]

Wasn’t the wind up radio Trevor Bayliss ?

Dyson did invent / develop the Ballbarrow - I remember seeing that on Tomorrow’s World.

Rhys

Yes of course it was.
I really should remember to check things from years ago or simply claim senility.

 

[Pete Effamy]

This must have been said already, but a sax in good working order with our old design will be airtight quicker than a “wait til I get seated” self levelling pad.
I know this takes but an instant, but is there a point where “an instant” isn’t instant enough? 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[Pete Thomas]

but a sax in good working order with our old design will be airtight quicker than a “wait til I get seated” self levelling pad.

Very true, but if we are talking about innovations (which the subject of this thread implies) then we can make the difference between the ideal (the instantly self levelling pad) and those which attempted but failed at being instant. e.g. the ones pointed out by DavidUK re: double action.

Whoever does innovate in this area would of course be working towards a pad that didn't require you to wait and that satisfied the most demanding of players and techs.

 

[DavidUK]

As I've said, my design seats the pad the first time it closes and that's it. It's thereafter held in that position by the strong magnet glued into the cup.
There was an initial flaw, the "squeeze leak" which a tester here discovered and another eminent tech here helped diagnose but I seem to have sorted it.
It was down to too much friction between magnet and pad button screw head, holding the pad minutely open. The pad could make big first closure movement but not tiny subsequent ones.
Sorted here...

View: https://youtu.be/sykOCqVJ7XI?si=aWq1KcFPQROe-qih

 

[olds_cool63]

Pads are like tuxedos!

 

[Woodpad]

Whoever does innovate in this area would of course be working towards a pad that didn't require you to wait and that satisfied the most demanding of players and techs.

The longest waiting time has to do with waiting for repair shops and stores to be successful with innovative pads. There have been some introductions in the past that made them hesitant.
Adams music in the Netherlands offered Schmidts gold pads for a few years but it didn't sell enough. They also experimented a few years with toptone pads and made this New York saxophone. Still no cigar. The loyalty to leather pads is a difficult hurdle to take.

 

[DavidUK]

Techs and retailers are going to be scared of innovation and innovation needs to be proven to dispel that fear. It's catch 22!
Plus... so far nothing's worked.
I'm waiting for custom cut self-adhesive pads to arrive. They ordered the cutters for the sizes I need but they went missing en route to their factory. New cutters just arrived. Then I can get going with the "final" alto and tenor prototypes for field testing...

 

[Dr G]

Techs and retailers are going to be scared of innovation and innovation needs to be proven to dispel that fear. It's catch 22!
Plus... so far nothing's worked.

A musician walks into a store: “I’m looking for a new horn.”

Salesperson: “I’ve got just the thing for you. It’s new.”

Musician: “It doesn’t seem any better than my current horn.”

Salesperson: “It’s innovative!”

Musician takes the horn on trial and asks the tech for an opinion.

Tech: “Hmm, this is innovative. It has a lot of new parts that I don’t stock. I don’t know this company. If you need any parts or special pads, it may take me a while to repair your horn. And since I’m not familiar with this mechanism, it may take more of my time, so I’ll have to charge you more.”

Musician: “Thanks. Maybe I’ll look for a nice Buescher for a backup.”

Bottom line: Dealers and techs aren’t scared of innovation, but they are not going to seek products that don’t sell or cost more to repair.

 

[jonf]

Musician: “Thanks. Maybe I’ll look for a nice Buescher Yamaha for a backup.”

 

[Pete Effamy]

Musician: “Thanks. Maybe I’ll look for a nice Buescher Yamaha for a backup.”

Musician: “Thanks. Maybe I’ll look for a nice non-Yamaha for a backup.”

 

[DavidUK]

Retailer/Tech... "...but these pads have a lifetime guarantee against wear..."
Would that swing it?