Playing the saxophone Learn to play by ear or by reading music

[Pete Thomas]

Hmm i think that you have earnt bragging rites tbf..

Not at all. I've just been a regular gigging musician. I was actually tone deaf at the age of 18. I am not a great musician, not innately talented, just put in the hours. Anyone can do it.

 

[BUMNOTE]

Unfortunately not me.. i was just using it to show the sort of thing id like to improv over

My mistake,but keep on practicing and asking questions.😉

 

[eb424]

My mistake,but keep on practicing and asking questions.😉

Big time..

 

[Pete Effamy]

This analogy doesn’t really work unless we compare an artist to a musician who is 100% improvising or composing. If a musician is learning by ear, they are learning to play someone else’s music so they are not doing anything as original as the artist. Unless the artist is of course copying something.

Or painting by ear..

 

[Targa]

Or painting by ear..

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxHnRfhDmrk

 

[Pete Effamy]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxHnRfhDmrk

I played this song with Don at the BBC. He had played it obviously so many times on his own that he had just evolved his own sense of meter. Most bar lengths were different and the band had to keep skipping on. Happened in two both rehearsals and the performance as I remember. He said that we rehearsed too much. Not a great experience.

 

[thomsax]

I posted this on another place here on CS. We were touching "play by ear" there as well.

Learn a song by ear ......

... learn the key
... learn the "meter" (versmått on swedish)
... learn the length
... learn the format
... learn the harmonic form
... learn the melody (no short-cuts)
... learn the lyrics/words and the meaning of the lyrics.

90% of the songs I learned by ear and play as I remember them, are songs with lyrics. Blues, Rock & Roll, R&B ..... . How to give tones and color the lyrics/words with your sax is important.

I try to play slow blues with a big tenor sound. Like Hollis Gilmore. So far I'm afraid the result is not so good. How to play lyrics like this on sax? Listen to players that have done it helps up. But just a little bit. Great blues lyrics?

 

[Pete Thomas]

learn the melody (no short-cuts)

It depends what you call shortcuts. You mention learning the harmonic form. You can go a bit more granular and look out for melodic devices such as melodic sequences. e.g. in Blue Moon there is a melodic sequence where bars 2 - 3 are repeated a 3rd lower (diatonically).

So it's useful to have a bit of theory knowledge. For me it's useful to put the learning of the lyrics before learning the tune on the saxophone.

 

[thomsax]

It depends what you call shortcuts. You mention learn the harmonic form. You can go a bit more granular and look out for melodic devices such as melodic sequences. e.g. in Blue Moon there is a melodic sequence where bars 2 - 3 are repeated a 3rd lower (diatonically).

So it's useful to have a bit of theory knowledge. For me it's useful to put the learning of the lyrics before learning the tune on the saxophone.

The things I listed was nothing I consider when I started to learn song by ear when I was 12 years old. I started to learn English/American R&B and Rock & Roll songs just to listen and repeat what I have heard until I was pleased/happy. I was 10 years old when we got English lessons in school. So my first learn by ear songs it was just me, a saxophone and recorded music from the radio. Today we have theorized learn by ear so some knowledge of theory is useful? I think that is wrong, even if I'm a part of this as well. Then we get well educated musicians to that have prerogative to set the standard for learning by ear?

The lyrics becomes more important the older I get. I didn't understand the meaning (lyrics) of "Long As I Can See The Light" (CCR/John Fogerty). It was the music and the sax, background/fillings and solo, that caught my attention. I simply liked the mode of the song and I wanted to play it. So I learned it by ear.

So learn by ear is maybe not true these days. If we have theory and methods to learn how to learn by ear we have missed something?

 

[mizmar]

What makes you think there aren't 12 year olds, in bedrooms, transcribing from MP3s, these days? Maybe even Theory free!
And what's wrong with knowing the notes and some patterns of a key before starting to transcribe, to make life easier?
And, really, if someone 50+ years old wants to learn to play by ear; saying "start when you're 12" isn't a plausible way forward.

Extrapolating from ones personal experience to universal truths about infinity is rarely safe.

 

[eb424]

what

Have you finished the song you started when you were 12...lol.
Informative post as usual..

 

[eb424]

What makes you think there aren't 12 year olds, in bedrooms, transcribing from MP3s, these days? Maybe even Theory free!
And what's wrong with knowing the notes and some patterns of a key before starting to transcribe, to make life easier?
And, really, if someone 50+ years old wants to learn to play by ear; saying "start when you're 12" isn't a plausible way forward.

Extrapolating from ones personal experience to universal truths about infinity is rarely safe.

I know what most 12 year old boys will be doing tbf ;-)...valid about notes and keys reduces the amount of notes to choose from. Theory's important certain elements but as long as playings fun there are other ways..

 

[thomsax]

What makes you think there aren't 12 year olds, in bedrooms, transcribing from MP3s, these days? Maybe even Theory free!

I know that there are young persons who are having good times with the music. Technology changed learn by ear over the years. Today it's computers, mp3 ..... I had to reel to reel and radio ..... my thatcher had stone cakes and a his master voice gramophone. So it's changed.

And what's wrong with knowing the notes and some patterns of a key before starting to transcribe, to make life easier?

it's not wrong .... but I don't understand the meaning .

We used to have some kind of "spelmansträffar" with a blues saxophone player. No jazz, rock, no known key, no scales except the singing scale ... the music came from the leaders song (voice) and saxophone, Listen and learn and play what you have learned. It was a slow way to teach and learn. Time is tight these days even if time is the same, more or less, as it was yesterday or for 100 years ago. The theory is a way to make things more efficient?

 

[mizmar]

Theory's important certain elements but as long as playings fun there are other ways.

As far as I can see, unless you are a composer/arranger, "theory" is just how we talk about music. It's a means of communication, a way of categorising ideas. Sure, of course, have fun. But when a person gets stuck , is frustrated, not having fun and asks for ideas; the answer is going to come back in using "theory" language.

 

[thomsax]

Have you finished the song you started when you were 12...lol.
Informative post as usual..

Still working on it. A never ending process.

 

[Pete Thomas]

The theory is a way to make things more efficient?

Definitely. But not in every case I imagine.

 

[Wade Cornell]

thomsax said:
The theory is a way to make things more efficient?

If you're playing a bunch of memorized riffs and arpeggios then you're not really playing by ear. If you're playing melodically by ear then you're generally not using Jazz Theory and instead playing what you hear works as a melody or otherwise.

There is also a huge difference between playing using "Jazz Theory" as opposed to learning general music theory. Education can be enormously beneficial, yet when/if it's dictating a falsehood (like one can ONLY learn to improvise using theory), then its totally wrong. Playing melodically doesn't mean that you don't understand theory or haven't studied it. Likewise having knowledge of theory shouldn't = using Jazz Theory exclusively. It's not an either or, yet developing the ability to play by ear or melodically certainly isn't stressed as part of Jazz Theory.

Playing for some years gives some players the ability to hear a line and play it. It's the instrument becoming your voice. Playing by ear is less about running improv lines for technical effect and more about being creative and truly composing on the spot, whether it's jazz, pop, rock, blues...etc.

Playing by ear isn't just memory or "finger memory" where you're playing a practiced tune, using a well practiced riff, or plugging in well worn lines that simply fit the changes. Even something as simple as playing a harmony, (as long as it's not "lockstep"... all thirds, fifths etc.) can be improvisation since you've got to hear that line to play it in a spontaneous situation.

All knowledge helps, yet if one is stuck in just playing by reading or using jazz theory, and never attempts breaking free of it, then it's certainly not a stepping stone to playing by ear. All genres, styles, and modes of playing take time, energy and practice to master.

Bottom line... Education can be very beneficial, yet one must eventually direct themselves toward their goal. Creativity can be encouraged, but unfortunately not taught. If all you want is to play in a formulaic manner, then all you need are those formulas... and that's the antithesis of playing by ear.

 

[thomsax]

If you're playing a bunch of memorized riffs and arpeggios then you're not really playing by ear. If you're playing melodically by ear then you're generally not using Jazz Theory and instead playing what you hear works as a melody or otherwise.

I try not to use the combo "play by ear" so often. Just because I use to play by memory that I have learned by ear. So I learn by ear and play by memory that I've learned by ear. It's not only me, Manny, many ..... others that say they are playing by ear are playing by/from memory. I'm not ashamed of to say I rarely play by ear. Sometimes on a jam or a rehearsal I can play combo of notes that I've never heard/played before. It's more catching the moment.

If we need a preparatory course to be qualified "to learn songs by ear" ....? We have already institutionalized blues, rock & roll, jazz ... enough.

 

[Wade Cornell]

I try not to use the combo "play by ear" so often. Just because I use to play by memory that I have learned by ear. So I learn by ear and play by memory that I've learned by ear. It's not only me, Manny, many ..... others that say they are playing by ear are playing by/from memory. I'm not ashamed of to say I rarely play by ear. Sometimes on a jam or a rehearsal I can play combo of notes that I've never heard/played before. It's more catching the moment.

If we need a preparatory course to be qualified "to learn songs by ear" ....? We have already institutionalized blues, rock & roll, jazz ... enough.

No need to worry about someone promoting that they can teach anyone to play by ear. That's like trying to teach creativity. If you're copying you aren't creating. Institutionalizing music is about formulas to follow giving a standard result, and importantly for institutions, that they can grade!

At best we have a few exercises, but it's mostly up to the individual to work at making the connection between what they hear in their heads and making it happen on their instrument.

 

[thomsax]

If you're copying you aren't creating.

Well I'm a copycat as well. In January I joined a group that is keen on Tom Waits songs. So I was going to play, a solo as well, on some songs without saxes. When I listened and I recognized some sections where I could use Clarence "Big Man" Clemens licks. Not copy a whole solo. Am I a bad person or ...... ?