Playing the saxophone Learn to play by ear or by reading music

[mizmar]

Can this be learnt..or can some do it and some not..discuss.. lol

I suppose you are particularly thinking about for late starters, like us?
If so, in my limited experience; Yea, to a finite degree.
Playing something by ear, ear training etc. are parts of my practice rotation. It gets better. Slowly. Some - many - deficits and some clear strengths.

Anecdote:
Today I was reviewing a recorded exercise for my flute teacher;
And he goes "here, this E is wrong, listen..." plays the phrase a couple of times and, yes, I could hear, in that context, it should be E-quarter flat and not E natural (I'd played it correctly elsewhere in the piece).

So, yeah. It's a slog if you start later in life but, it seems, progress can be made.

 

[Vetinari]

Deleted by me.

 

[wakyct]

The way improvisation is currently taught pretty much ignores the individual being able to play by ear and instead uses an academic approach to playing according to the chord structure and using that to play riffs and arpeggios in a cut and paste fashion. The result is a technical display lacking in melody and generally only communicates the player's technical abilities (not necessarily saying much musically to an audience).

IMHO the ideal way to improvise is the individual playing/creating lines they hear rather than mechanically playing riffs and arpeggios that are more akin to "cut and paste".

is it fair to say that things like scales, riffs, arpeggios, licks, etc. are like the tools, techniques and materials of other art forms? For example a painter and their brushes, paints, type of paper and substrate, and so on.

Sometimes a painter can create art not by proceeding from an idea in their head but by seeing what develops in front of them, pushing paint around.

I suppose you could say this analogy is flawed in the sense that the true substance of musical improvisation is not academic theories describing music but the music itself (pitches and rhythm), but I'm not sure that completely invalidates the idea of an artist creating without preconceived (in the sense of hearing a line in their head) ideas? What do you think?

 

[eb424]

I think art is a good analogy..it can be learnt but some people have a natural talent..and some people regardless of learning the underpinning theory will never get it..the issue for me arose from going for a blowout over the hall with a mate..he's played for 40 years..
He helps me at the care home gigs..makes my playing the melodies complete by improvising over the instrumental parts..I need to be able to do this otherwise i cant play a complete song so whats the point in playing?
I thought i had a process worked out..I used a music slow downer app knew the key sig and notes from the song so noodled a rew riffs with the song instrumental on loop..song in question is "enjoy yourself" by prince buster..my first draft is miles off of his..

 

[Wade Cornell]

is it fair to say that things like scales, riffs, arpeggios, licks, etc. are like the tools, techniques and materials of other art forms? For example a painter and their brushes, paints, type of paper and substrate, and so on.

Sometimes a painter can create art not by proceeding from an idea in their head but by seeing what develops in front of them, pushing paint around.

I suppose you could say this analogy is flawed in the sense that the true substance of musical improvisation is not academic theories describing music but the music itself (pitches and rhythm), but I'm not sure that completely invalidates the idea of an artist creating without preconceived (in the sense of hearing a line in their head) ideas? What do you think?

I'm certainly not arguing with you. Playing in an academic manner is a distinct style that is the most prevalent taught and has a huge number of adherents. This thread is however about "playing by ear", which seems to be something that players are becoming more interested in. There are several potential reasons of this : 1. Lack of audiences for listening to mainstream jazz. 2. Recognition of jam sessions being like "fastest gun in the west" competitions where the music has little meaning compared to individuals trying to out play each other. 3. The desire to play in different genres where a 1950s jazz vocabulary and attitude isn't particularly welcome. 4. Anyone wishing to be a professional player recognizes that the opportunities are in those other genres. Joining a pop, reggae, or other contemporary band means that you will NOT have written music, will most likely be playing backing or harmonies, so need to be able to hear and play a part you make up that fits.

Classical and Jazz training don't prepare you for this, whereas the ear player, if they have a wider musical "genre library" has a shot at those gigs. It seems that players who have professional ambitions and had some experience who haven't quite managed to play by ear are especially in need. However, as said, there isn't any structured/recognized program for ear training, just a few of us giving suggestions and basic exercises.

There is a section on this site under "Forums" then scroll down to "Your Sound Clips". In that section you'll find "Wikiloops Backing Tracks". Click on that and you'll find 300 tracks that are original templates for you to have a play with in various genres. There is also a demonstration track of a improvisation (ear play) for each to give ideas/examples. There are examples of playing lead as well as backing where written music or chord charts aren't available. You have to listen and find your line to play. There are no standards or covers. Best of luck!

 

[eb424]

Proof is easy:
If you can look at a score and sing what you see, then you're hearing those notes. And are you able to sing the right notes/key without hearing a reference note played? (relative pitch as compared to perfect pitch).

Does this not mean onlybthat you can sing..when ive tried all the flamin notes sound the same

 

[mizmar]

..my first draft is miles off of his..

But a start!
Remember the old mixed adage:
Rome was burned down in a day...
... But it took Nero a lifetime to learn to improvise over it.

 

[Wade Cornell]

Does this not mean onlybthat you can sing..when ive tried all the flamin notes sound the same

I can't tell you what you can or can't do. We hopefully all have the same opportunities, yet we don't all have the same build or abilities. I'd love to be a basketball star, but at 5' 8" and 77 years old that's not reality! I'd also love to have an Einstein Brain... that's not happening either. Why should we think that making music is somehow different?

This is the rough bit: There are lots of folks out there (generally who would like your $$) who will tell you that all you need to do is follow their teaching programme. Well, if you equate making music to engineering, then yes, you can learn to make a tone on an instrument and manipulate it in a mechanical way and eventually play a tune well that you've played and heard many times with some degree of satisfaction, and that's OK. But it's not quite the same thing as being able to play something that comes into your head as an original composition, or a creative improvisation. If you can't hear something to play or sing, then playing mechanically may be as good as it gets. If that's your goal and passion and it's a pleasure to achieve, then who is to say you shouldn't go for it?

We just need to keep some perspective as wishing isn't going to change our physical or mental abilities. We can work with what we've got and make the best of it. For the average person that may include being able to play tunes for friends be part of a band or sit in at a jam session and have fun.

My comments are generally aimed at those who wish to become professionals and need to broaden their scope of playing and develop their ear to hand abilities. It's challenging a new generation to leave behind the idea that improvisation is strictly a jazz phenomena, and teaching and playing in that one genre is somehow the pinnacle of musicianship. Being a musician is about entertaining people. When that stops happening and there is no audience, then you've got to at least recognize there is a problem. There is no doubt that developing extremely technical jazz chops takes work and dedication, yet it's a professional dead end. There are niches for all sorts music from the past... Ragtime, Trad Jazz, Big Band Bebop, etc. yet all of those require only a few top pros who can make a living. Being in the present tense and moving forward with the times is more likely to be where opportunities lie...if it's not all given over to AI... Ha!

For those who love playing standards and in a 1950s style, there is nobody stopping you and you are wished every happiness in your pursuit. However it too often seems that those who are dedicated to studying, playing, and especially teaching jazz aren't comfortable reciprocating those good wishes.

Practice well and be happy!

 

[rhysonsax]

Well, if you equate making music to engineering, then yes, you can learn to make a tone on an instrument and manipulate it in a mechanical way and eventually play a tune well that you've played and heard many times with some degree of satisfaction, and that's OK. But it's not quite the same thing as being able to play something that comes into your head as an original composition, or a creative improvisation. If you can't hear something to play or sing, then playing mechanically may be as good as it gets. If that's your goal and passion and it's a pleasure to achieve, then who is to say you shouldn't go for it?

I think that perhaps your analogy might work better if you used the term "technician" rather than "engineer". Engineering, by definition, is an innovative process drawing on an understanding of scientific principles to solve new problems. It is not a mechanical process but a highly creative one.

Rhys
(Chartered Engineer)

 

[turf3]

I think that perhaps your analogy might work better if you used the term "technician" rather than "engineer". Engineering, by definition, is an innovative process drawing on an understanding of scientific principles to solve new problems. It is not a mechanical process but a highly creative one.

Rhys
(Chartered Engineer)

Well, that's just the usual engineer-hate that emanates from people who can't hack math. Or "maths", if you prefer. They make themselves feel better by trying to convince themselves that engineers are a bunch of autism-spectrum losers without social skills, of no cultural sophistication, totally unattractive to the opposite sex (or same sex, whatever), broken glasses mended with duct tape, unable to throw a ball, can only discuss their own narrow field which no one else is interested in, etc., etc., etc.

 

[Targa]

Well, that's just the usual engineer-hate that emanates from people who can't hack math. Or "maths", if you prefer. They make themselves feel better by trying to convince themselves that engineers are a bunch of autism-spectrum losers without social skills, of no cultural sophistication, totally unattractive to the opposite sex (or same sex, whatever), broken glasses mended with duct tape, unable to throw a ball, can only discuss their own narrow field which no one else is interested in, etc., etc., etc.

Well that's engineer Howard, what about physicists Sheldon, Leonard and Raj?

 

[mizmar]

Well that's engineer Howard, what about physicists Sheldon, Leonard and Raj?

Theoretical physics Sheldon
Experimental physicist Leonard
Dilatant astrophysicist Raj

And

Aerospace Engineer Howard

And

I may have misunderstood the post Engineer turf3

 

[skeller047]

I think that “playing by ear” really means “thinking in music”. A skilled musician listens the same way she plays - awareness of all the sounds that are happening, recognition of phrases and chords and rhythms, appreciation of unique phrasing and tonal colors, etc. An artist is aware of many hundreds of shades of red; when he employs them in a painting do we say he is “painting by eye”?

This knowledge and awareness comes from many thousands of hours of study and work. I remember the first time I tried to write some music without playing it - just trying to capture the sound I heard in my head on paper with no piano or saxophone at hand. It was hard work - 8 bars took 4 hours. But it sounded the way I wanted it to. It’s easier and faster for me now, 50 years on, but it’s still hard work.

One needs a clear mental image of a sound, a sonic memory, if you will, and a willingness to spend a lot of time thinking about it in order to understand it. Then trying stuff out to see if one’s analysis matches reality. This is why so many people emphasize playing along with records, and transcription. This kind of exercise leads one to a match between imagination and actual sound.

When we speak, are we conscious of every word or phrase, or are we more concerned with expressing an idea or telling a story? We need to have this same sort of fluidity when playing - hear a note and play it, rather than hear a note then figure out what note it is, then try to remember the fingering, then think whether to tongue or slur, then make a noise.

It takes time. There is no easy route. For late starters it may be harder. Repetition is mastery. But mindless repetition is useless, you have to think about what you are trying to do and how close or far you are from it.

 

[eb424]

View: https://youtu.be/9atuGhGnQ4c?si=nNeVvRI3uFwKJrqs


Ok I found this which may make my point easier..The song sounds better without playingbthe instrumental but that section highlights what im trying to achieve..am i being harsh on myself after only 9 years playing. How would i improv over the instrumental can i learn it? Should i be able to do it? Could any of you guys if you were my teacher be able to help..its a c instrument the songs in B major so im working with that scale

 

[Pete Thomas]

The song sounds better without playingbthe instrumental but that section highlights what im trying to achieve.

I don't know what you mean by that. It's a nice break from "wall to wall" saxophone to have a guitar solo.

How would i improv over the instrumental can i learn it?

I would just leave it to the guitar.

 

[eb424]

I don't know what you mean by that. It's a nice break from "wall to wall" saxophone to have a guitar solo.


I would just leave it to the guitar.

Im going to but need to know i can do it..Otherwise theres not much point in playing anymore..

 

[trimmy]

Just learn to dad dance

 

[mizmar]

Just learn to dad dance

And the quiff!
At least for that song. Ed's repertoire might require quick change for the dance and hairdo.

 

[Bisaxual]

I can play several stringed instruments by ear, but since I only took up tenor sax 3 years ago, I’ve not yet developed any instinct of where to go on the horn (ie, what fingerings) for the next note I want. So it IS important what note I start on, as that determines the key I’ll be playing in. I’ve found it useful to get familiar with fingerings for 2 or 3 keys as I try to play by ear, although I usually have to write the note names down after I’ve found them, or I’ll have forgotten them by the second verse 🙁

 

[Pete Thomas]

An artist is aware of many hundreds of shades of red; when he employs them in a painting do we say he is “painting by eye”?

This analogy doesn’t really work unless we compare an artist to a musician who is 100% improvising or composing. If a musician is learning by ear, they are learning to play someone else’s music so they are not doing anything as original as the artist. Unless the artist is of course copying something.