Beginner theory Finding the chords for a 12 bar blues

[cappers]

I would be grateful for some advice on determining the chords in a tune when they aren't given.

I am trying to solo a 12 bar blues over Green Onions (arranged by Terry Pack?). The key for tenor is noted as Dmaj and the music sheet states "Solos in Gminor blues"

I was told this was a mistake and solos should be in Aminor not Gminor. It was suggested I use Amin, with a couple of Dmin and Emin, all blues scales.

Amin blue ACDEbEG
Dmin blue DFGAbAC
Emin blue EGABbBD

The general format for a 12-BB is
I / I / I / I /
IV / IV/ I / I /
V7/ V7/ I / I /

So that suggests to me
A-/A-/A-/A-/
D-/D-/A-/A-/
E-/E-/A-/A-/

But looking at the the backing track I can't determine from the notes which chord is which. To me it looks more like 1/1/1/1, 4/1/1/1, 5/4/1/1?

It looks like
A-/A-/A-/A-/
D-/A-/A-/A-/
E-/D-/A-/A-/

Am I yet again totally confused and barking up the wrong tree? I understand how chords are constructed but find it difficult to determine what chord is played from the notes given.

Apologies for a long post; I hope I have made myself clear.

 

[thomsax]

@thomsax I remember a discussion a while back in the other sax forum about blues where someone claimed Shotgun was blues. Even though it's not a 12 bar blues, I agree that it's still very obviously a blues tune. What do you think? Do all blues tunes have to follow the 12 bar form?

I like Diddley blues, also the 8 bar blues ... what I like with blues is that it's easy to create music with other muscians. The blues is very much a social thing .... the blues is in the lyrics not in the form.

 

[turf3]

I like Diddley blues, also the 8 bar blues ... what I like with blues is that it's easy to create music with other muscians. The blues is very much a social thing .... the blues is in the lyrics not in the form.

It's the form that makes it so easy to play with other people without pre-arrangement.

Call "12 bar blues in Bb with a quick 4" and everyone knows what it is. Similar to "Rhythm Changes in Bb" or several other standard forms. The scuttlebutt was that back in KC in the 30s and 40s, if you had blues and rhythm changes in all keys under your fingers, you were pretty much good to go.

 

[cappers]

I just had another look at the music you showed and I am also totally confused
...................
Just looking at the melody you'd think it was Am blues, but a key sig of two sharps suggests otherwise.

@Pete Thomas @Pete Effamy @turf3 @JSL @lydian and others.

Yes it is poorly annotated. Apparently it was made by the previous band leader using software to transpose the parts. The tenor parts indicate Dmaj but Cs & Fs are marked as naturals not sharps. As I didn't know this was wrong I played the solo in Gm as directed which was the concert key!

The current B/L is a seasoned old pro and checks and sorts out new pieces, and is rigorous about timing and accuracy. Because everybody in the band knows this one as it is the finale and been played dozens of times, the dots are less important for them.

******************************************************************************************

After all your great input and help I have some news about Green Onions. The gigs always finales with GO. 12 bar keyboard intro as the band members are introduced, then into the head and solos. At the last gig nine of us did 2x12 bars and to be honest it went on a bit. As the soli are being shared out more on other songs it was decided tonight to play GO straight without solos!

No matter, your help in me understanding 12 BB, chord changes, voice leading etc is fundamental music theory and won't go to waste. There are several songs we do in 12BB formats so I am better prepared now. Thanks again.

 

[JSL]

Looks like you have this sorted now, cappers. However:

Yes it is poorly annotated. Apparently it was made by the previous band leader using software to transpose the parts. The tenor parts indicate Dmaj but Cs & Fs are marked as naturals not sharps. As I didn't know this was wrong I played the solo in Gm as directed which was the concert key!

I may be misinterpreting, but your statement here is still kind of confusing. That key signature does indicate Dmaj, but the tune is in a minor key, so the key signature should be read as Bmin. And yet the written part suggests Amin (for tenor). And since the tune is in concert Gmin, Amin is correct for tenor. Yet you played it in Gmin on tenor, which of course is concert Fmin.

That was kind of fun to write, even if it is totally convoluted and confusing. Bottom line, the tune is in Gmin (concert key), so you play it in Amin on tenor.

I'm at the point where if someone calls a tune in G, I automatically hear it as A since I'm a tenor player. Same with all the other keys: 'A' is B, 'E' is F#, 'Bb' is C, and so on.

 

[LostCircuits]

Looks like you have this sorted now, cappers. However:

I may be misinterpreting, but your statement here is still kind of confusing. That key signature does indicate Dmaj, but the tune is in a minor key, so the key signature should be read as Bmin. And yet the written part suggests Amin (for tenor). And since the tune is in concert Gmin, Amin is correct for tenor. Yet you played it in Gmin on tenor, which of course is concert Fmin.

That was kind of fun to write, even if it is totally convoluted and confusing. Bottom line, the tune is in Gmin (concert key), so you play it in Amin on tenor.

I'm at the point where if someone calls a tune in G, I automatically hear it as A since I'm a tenor player. Same with all the other keys: 'A' is B, 'E' is F#, 'Bb' is C, and so on.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzmnSyqv37A

 

[PiccoloPirate]

If the tune is called in concert G,
I hear it in, concert G. 🎶🏴‍☠️🎶
What fingering you use, varies, depending on the horn.
Learn the scale's fingerings, and try to think in Concert.

 

[LostCircuits]

That whole concert thing is really the crux of it, If it is a blues, all you need to do is memorize the fingering for the first note and then the second note as in 1,3 and then the third note as in 4. And then you have the 3 notes that perfectly line up with the root chord of the blues. Once you have that, everything else falls into place. There is not even a need to remember anything for the "4" (subdominant) chord, if you have modicum of blues understanding, your fingers will fall right into place and then you only have to worry about the "5" dominant blues chord. Easy peasy.

Keep it simple, memory is finite and concentrate on your starting note. Blues in D: xxx xxo and the rest is just playing along.

 

[Pete Effamy]

If the tune is called in concert G,
I hear it in, concert G. 🎶🏴‍☠️🎶
What fingering you use, varies, depending on the horn.
Learn the scale's fingerings, and try to think in Concert.

No. This shouldn’t be a directive - “try to think in concert pitch”. For some yes, some no. It’s advantageous to be able to switch between the two - transpose, but it takes a certain mind to not be confused at some point.

I know a guitarist who took up sax in his later years and thought entirely concert. It became confusing when he’d ask me about fingerings - middle finger Bb or side Bb? - meaning C. Then there are the Eb saxes, and the displaced octave vs written on page etc.

So far, I understand why, though not me. What happens when you read a chart written for the sax you’re playing? It’s just extra processing that isn’t necessary, especially if the chart gets sticky with maybe E#, or Cb and the like. That would take some mental agility.

 

[thomsax]

I'm at the point where if someone calls a tune in G, I automatically hear it as A since I'm a tenor player. Same with all the other keys: 'A' is B, 'E' is F#, 'Bb' is C, and so on

One of the first songs I learned by ear (cribbed) was in the key of concert B major. Tenor C#/Db, alto G#/Ab. As a 14 years saxplayer I just learned the fingering that I heard from the recording. The old german "GRIFFTABELLE FÜR SAXOPHON" was a big help. Bb is the dream key for lots of tenor saxplayers. Not to me. I prefer C# to Bb. My dream key is concert A. I'm grounded in the key of B major on tenor. Concert C D, E is also fine. Why play in C, F, .... when I can play (badly) in C#, F# ..... A song in B major (original key) is often told to be a song Bb or C. Easier for the players and/or they sell more sheet music/backing tracks!?!?!

I think the groove of "Green Onion" is more or less what the song is about. Write big arrangements, horn charts .... but don't loose the grove.

 

[JSL]

If the tune is called in concert G,
I hear it in, concert G. 🎶🏴‍☠️🎶
What fingering you use, varies, depending on the horn.
Learn the scale's fingerings, and try to think in Concert.

Whatever works is fine. But to be clear on what I was trying to say, I don't 'think' in concert key. When playing tenor I think in the tenor key, although I'm well aware of the concert key. It works like this: Someone says: "blues in G", I immediately hear that as "blues in A" and play in the key of A on my tenor. If it's "blues in E", I'm in the key of F#, "blues in Bb", I'm in C, and so on.

It couldn't be simpler than that.

 

[Vlad]

Like the man just said..
When I first started playing with guitarists as a youngster I made a 'cheat sheet' ie wrote down all the notes and beside each one it's equivalent in Bb Tenor key. (it lived in the sax case) so whatever chords the song used I could immediately look over and see what it was as far as I was concerned. I never thought about it as the 'actual' concert pitch or whatever, just what I needed to know / play for my own instrument, ie Bb Tenor sax.
No point doing unnecessary mental gymnastics, especially if you're an 'oik' like me 😀

 

[JSL]

When I first started playing with guitarists as a youngster I made a 'cheat sheet' ie wrote down all the notes and beside each one it's equivalent in Bb Tenor key.

The other way to do it, without needing 'mental gymnastics' is to simply transpose the note or chord name up a whole step (for tenor). This is pretty simple.

On alto, you have to go down a minor 3rd or up a major 6th. That's a bit more complex, but it's a really good idea to train yourself to instantly know those intervals. IOW, know what the '6' is in every key, as well as the '4', '5', and all the other intervals.

 

[Vlad]

The other way to do it, without needing 'mental gymnastics' is to simply transpose the note or chord name up a whole step (for tenor). This is pretty simple.

On alto, you have to go down a minor 3rd or up a major 6th. That's a bit more complex, but it's a really good idea to train yourself to instantly know those intervals. IOW, know what the '6' is in every key, as well as the '4', '5', and all the other intervals.

Sure you soon get the hang of it, but this was effectively the first time I'd played in something resembling a 'proper' band so was handy to have a quick reference as to the equivalent chords of a song. I had a brief stint on alto too, as you say that's a bit further apart.

 

[Colin the Bear]

It's quite simple to read a tone up but I find that it's too complicated to think in intervals on Eb instruments. I find it much simpler to just know the concert pitch of each fingering.

I think it's easier on the mind if you started your saxophone journey on Eb ers. The simplicity of switching to a Bb instrument can be a relief. Until you pick up the clarinet. 🥴

 

[Vlad]

Until you pick up the clarinet. 🥴

All the right notes, just not necessarily in the right order..

 

[Pete Thomas]

Do not follow my example, but on alto I think in concert pitch, ie I always think of the 3 fingers of left hand as Bb before I think of G

On tenor, first I think of the same fingering as in tenor pitch, ie G.

Don't ask me why.

 

[GCinCT]

The other way to do it, without needing 'mental gymnastics' is to simply transpose the note or chord name up a whole step (for tenor). This is pretty simple.

On alto, you have to go down a minor 3rd or up a major 6th. That's a bit more complex, but it's a really good idea to train yourself to instantly know those intervals. IOW, know what the '6' is in every key, as well as the '4', '5', and all the other intervals.

For alto, I just think of the relative minor key of the concert key, and there's my key. Concert Bb? No problem. G.

 

[turf3]

Looks like you have this sorted now, cappers. However:

I may be misinterpreting, but your statement here is still kind of confusing. That key signature does indicate Dmaj, but the tune is in a minor key, so the key signature should be read as Bmin. And yet the written part suggests Amin (for tenor). And since the tune is in concert Gmin, Amin is correct for tenor. Yet you played it in Gmin on tenor, which of course is concert Fmin.

That was kind of fun to write, even if it is totally convoluted and confusing. Bottom line, the tune is in Gmin (concert key), so you play it in Amin on tenor.

I'm at the point where if someone calls a tune in G, I automatically hear it as A since I'm a tenor player. Same with all the other keys: 'A' is B, 'E' is F#, 'Bb' is C, and so on.

Well, the part that he showed is garbage. Probably the usual computer-generated garbage. All the stuff about thinking in concert, or sax key, etc., is just eyewash.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Well, the part that he showed is garbage. Probably the usual computer-generated garbage. All the stuff about thinking in concert, or sax key, etc., is just eyewash.

Eyewash = Irrelevant?

 

[Vlad]

Well I'd certainly just be thinking in sax key, ie the part I'm playing in the whole shebang, anyone in concert pitch that's their bit to sort out , ''not my circus, not my monkeys'' 🙂