Beginner theory Finding the chords for a 12 bar blues

[cappers]

I would be grateful for some advice on determining the chords in a tune when they aren't given.

I am trying to solo a 12 bar blues over Green Onions (arranged by Terry Pack?). The key for tenor is noted as Dmaj and the music sheet states "Solos in Gminor blues"

I was told this was a mistake and solos should be in Aminor not Gminor. It was suggested I use Amin, with a couple of Dmin and Emin, all blues scales.

Amin blue ACDEbEG
Dmin blue DFGAbAC
Emin blue EGABbBD

The general format for a 12-BB is
I / I / I / I /
IV / IV/ I / I /
V7/ V7/ I / I /

So that suggests to me
A-/A-/A-/A-/
D-/D-/A-/A-/
E-/E-/A-/A-/

But looking at the the backing track I can't determine from the notes which chord is which. To me it looks more like 1/1/1/1, 4/1/1/1, 5/4/1/1?

It looks like
A-/A-/A-/A-/
D-/A-/A-/A-/
E-/D-/A-/A-/

Am I yet again totally confused and barking up the wrong tree? I understand how chords are constructed but find it difficult to determine what chord is played from the notes given.

Apologies for a long post; I hope I have made myself clear.

 

[thomsax]

I'll point out that there is no single "standard" format for the blues form, even though it's readily identifiable when you hear it. Mostly it's a three part call and response kind of thing:

When you see me coming, heist your window high
When you see me coming, heist your window high
When you see me going, hang your head and cry

Except when it isn't!

Discussion of the detailed variants in 12 bar blues could go for many hours - and of course if you insert minor blues into the mix it's even more so.

A blues is a blues but ......

I never read or go too deep into blues songs. I just play. But I/we needed some basic information about the song that cut time. Better to play instead of talking. A rhythm page with or without is chords is very useful for the saxplayers as well.

I translated the swedish words to english/american

Think Chuck Berry on this song.

V7 four bars for intro

two chorus
I7 fours bars
IV7 two bars I7 two bars
V7 two bars I7 two bars

eight bar built up on I7 and go to
IV7 two bars I7 two bars
V7 two bars I7 two bars

one chorus as above (12 bar blues pattern)

ending
V7 three bars and I7 one bar.

A blues? Built as a blues but .... A blues with a bridge? A song "into the fifth", which means the intro starts on the fifth chord. I didn't write out the letters of the chords because we played/tried it differnt keys. I7 is major i7 is minor?

 

[Colin the Bear]

So many songs follow the 12 bar format. Mustang Sally, The Wanderer, Hippy Hippy shakes, Lucille, and tons of others. Lots of them in SOTM & BOTM with dots & tracks.

 

[lydian]

@thomsax I remember a discussion a while back in the other sax forum about blues where someone claimed Shotgun was blues. Even though it's not a 12 bar blues, I agree that it's still very obviously a blues tune. What do you think? Do all blues tunes have to follow the 12 bar form?

 

[PiccoloPirate]

What about a V7, in bar 12, to turn it around, and around and around?
If they're dancing and drinking,
keep it going. 💃🕺 🍷🍷🍺

 

[Pete Thomas]

Even though it's not a 12 bar blues, I agree that it's still very obviously a blues tune.

I don't think a tune needs to be a 12 bar form to be blues, however if I was looking for a genre to name Shotgun I'd be thinking Soul. That isn't say soul may not have a lot of blues, but for a tune (IMO) to be The Blues I think mostly country or urban blues.

I would include some jazz blues as a subgenre (either of jazz or blues) butI've know some jazz that happens to have a 12 bar form isn't necessarily blues unless it has a definite blues feel. Some does some doesn't.

 

[lydian]

I don't think a tune needs to be a 12 bar form to be blues, however if I was looking for a genre to name Shotgun I'd be thinking Soul. That isn't say soul may not have a lot of blues, but for a tune (IMO) to be a blues it has to be either country or urban blues.

I would include some jazz blues as a subgenre (either of jazz or blues) butI've know some jazz that happens to have a 12 bar form isn't necessarily blues unless it has a definite blues feel. Some does some doesn't.

Until you get to bar 5, Shotgun is pretty much identical to Mustang Sally, which is definitely blues. So I have a hard time disqualifying it for simply staying on the one chord.

Many rock and soul tunes follow a blues progression. Even Peg by Steely Dan is a blues form, but it's definitely not country or urban. So what disqualifies it, even though it's a blues chord progression?

 

[Pete Thomas]

So I have a hard time disqualifying it for simply staying on the one chord.

even though it's a blues chord progression?

IMO a 12 bar blues progression per se doesn't make something blues. I could write a march, symphony, disco or europop based on a 12 bar blues progression - it wouldn't make it the blues.

 

[JSL]

There's a very useful exercise for embedding chord tones in your muscle memory. It's in Taming the Saxophone but I got it off a very experienced professional player and educator decades ago.

It involves cycling through four tone arpeggios(chords) in a major key, and then doing that round the circle of fifths

I can't recommend it highly enough. It will synchronise your ears, fingers and brain.

In C it goes.

CEGB DFAC EGBD FACE GBDF ACEG BDFA.

Which is

Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 Bm7b5

Yes, that's an excellent exercise. You can also take each of those individual chords and run them through the cycle. I'd do it through the cycle of 4ths, since that's the direction many chord progressions move.

Since the topic here is the 12-bar blues, one good exercise, focused on the dominant chord, would be to play the dominant chord arpeggios through the cycle of 4ths, up one chord and down the next, which would include voice-leading stepwise to each following chord: C7 F7 Bb7 Eb7, etc. Like this (chord roots in bold):

Ascending: C E G Bb, down a half step to A, then descending: A F Eb C, down a whole step to Bb, then ascending: Bb D F Ab, then down a half step to G: G Eb Db Bb, then down a whole step to Ab, and up the Ab7 arpeggio, etc.

Note that the voice leading after ascending a chord moves down a half step to the 3rd of the following chord, and after descending on that chord, the voice leading moves down a whole step to the root of the next chord, which ascends, etc.

That all sounds far more complex than it is, once you get the pattern down. You end up ascending on one chord from the root and descending on the following chord from the 3rd. It will get the dominant chords and chord movement with voice leading in your ear and under your fingers.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Until you get to bar 5, Shotgun is pretty much identical to Mustang Sally, which is definitely blues. So I have a hard time disqualifying it for simply staying on the one chord.

Many rock and soul tunes follow a blues progression. Even Peg by Steely Dan is a blues form, but it's definitely not country or urban. So what disqualifies it, even though it's a blues chord progression?

Calling Peg a Blues is a stretch imo. Yes, the verse has chords 1,4 and 5 but always in Maj7 form and they oscillate with a Mu chord a fifth away. The melody is very major, with only one blue note.

The intro is pure Dan. Then there’s the chorus which is pretty functional.

 

[JSL]

So many songs follow the 12 bar format. Mustang Sally,

Actually, Mustang Sally is a 24-bar blues. The same 3 chords, but each chord covers twice the bars that you'd find in a 12-bar form.

IMO a 12 bar blues progression per se doesn't make something blues. I could write a march, symphony, disco or europop based on a 12 bar blues progression - it wouldn't make it the blues.

That's a good point. There's more to a blues than the song form. The blues has a certain feel that has to be there. And, as already pointed out, there are plenty of blues tunes that aren't a 12-bar form. And in fact, you can interject a blues feel to almost any format. Please don't ask me to explain 'blues feel'. I know it when I hear it. 🙂

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Let us not forget, the 8 Bar Blues.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft4chYLOZO8


Old slow family favorite:
First verse, of a long 8 bar, written for a Gospel choir, to cheer up a Lady friend.
76 bpm.
It worked. ❤️

If you only had the Blues,
You'd feel better than you do.
So you climb the highest hill,
To get a better view.
Of what got you down,
Held you there,
Took your soul away.
With no heart, it's a heavy way to live.

Music can bring down,
those healing Angels.

 

[turf3]

"See those weeds? Over there in the bar ditch? Steer for those!"

[sigh]

 

[Pete Thomas]

Am I yet again totally confused and barking up the wrong tree?

I just had another look at the music you showed and I am also totally confused

Just looking at the melody you'd think it was Am blues, but a key sig of two sharps suggests otherwise.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I just had another look at the music you showed and I am also totally confused

Just looking at the melody you'd think it was Am blues, but a key sig of two sharps suggests otherwise.

I’ve also been upset for a few days over the note grouping in bar 4, and the extra natural signs in tied notes. Put me right off me cornflakes.

 

[Pete Thomas]

and the extra natural signs in tied notes. Put me right off me cornflakes.

Not to mention the weird triplets: eighth eighth eighth rest.

 

[JSL]

Just looking at the melody you'd think it was Am blues, but a key sig of two sharps suggests otherwise.

Yeah, of course the key signature indicates either B min or D maj. If it was A min, which the melody does suggest, there should be no sharps or flats in the key signature. And there would be no need for the natural sign in front of C & F. The only accidental in that melody would be the Eb (b5). Maybe that melody was generated by AI? 🙂

 

[turf3]

Yeah, we've already been through this. The parts are crap. Someone who didn't know what they were doing used a buggy computerized notation program and got crap output. Anyone here ever hear of GIGO?

The tune's in G minor concert, A minor for tenor. That weird C natural to C natural thing in the third bar, you're going to have to play it with the rest of the band to figure out what's actually correct.

I'd use a no flats no sharps key signature for A minor blues.

I bet the rest of the parts are as Fd up as this one. But there's one saving grace here - the tune's so well known that if the part is bollixed up, you can just play the right notes in the indicated rhythm by ear.

 

[turf3]

I expect the weird triplet thing should actually be

Quarter quarter two sixteenths eighth rest two eighths.

Unfortunately if you hand a crap chart like this out to a bunch of beginners, you'll spend more time straightening out the rhythms than getting the rest of the thing right. And of course if the director isn't an old hairy-eared big band player that's seen everything and understands sometimes you have to play what it IS and not what's WRITTEN, much hilarity can ensue. I'd hate to see what the 23 year old dewy-faced conductor would make of something like this.

 

[JSL]

the tune's so well known that if the part is bollixed up, you can just play the right notes in the indicated rhythm by ear.

Yeah, just listen to the tune and play it right! For this tune, no need for a botched chart, or even an accurate one, for that matter.

 

[lydian]

I just had another look at the music you showed and I am also totally confused

Just looking at the melody you'd think it was Am blues, but a key sig of two sharps suggests otherwise.

Band member's admission the key signature is bogus is in post #5. Please ignore the key signature.