Beginner theory Finding the chords for a 12 bar blues

[cappers]

I would be grateful for some advice on determining the chords in a tune when they aren't given.

I am trying to solo a 12 bar blues over Green Onions (arranged by Terry Pack?). The key for tenor is noted as Dmaj and the music sheet states "Solos in Gminor blues"

I was told this was a mistake and solos should be in Aminor not Gminor. It was suggested I use Amin, with a couple of Dmin and Emin, all blues scales.

Amin blue ACDEbEG
Dmin blue DFGAbAC
Emin blue EGABbBD

The general format for a 12-BB is
I / I / I / I /
IV / IV/ I / I /
V7/ V7/ I / I /

So that suggests to me
A-/A-/A-/A-/
D-/D-/A-/A-/
E-/E-/A-/A-/

But looking at the the backing track I can't determine from the notes which chord is which. To me it looks more like 1/1/1/1, 4/1/1/1, 5/4/1/1?

It looks like
A-/A-/A-/A-/
D-/A-/A-/A-/
E-/D-/A-/A-/

Am I yet again totally confused and barking up the wrong tree? I understand how chords are constructed but find it difficult to determine what chord is played from the notes given.

Apologies for a long post; I hope I have made myself clear.

 

[Pete Thomas]

F# over Dm7

Please don't do that, it would be very very wrong!

In blues you can juxtapose minor over major often, but NOT the other way round.

At my stage of development I need to keep it simple. I seem to be able to hear where a melody is going and play something that fits.

I would recommend stick to Am blues scale to begin with.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

If you had only three notes to choose from, and unlimited amounts of rhythm, what three notes would you play, over a 12 Bar Blues, in a major or minor key?
Let's try G concert.
A buddy's concert violinist Dad, would school me like that.
Most often, when I walked into their home, he was playing solo, or with the string quartet.
The lovely female cellist, would always smile, and melt my heart. 😍

 

[cappers]

F# over Dm7 and G# over E7.

@Pete Thomas: "Please don't do that, it would be very very wrong!"

Yes you are correct, another typo by me! Play a F not F# over Dm7!

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Why just three notes?
To develop skills with rhythm and dynamics/expression.
He would start with just one note, then add another, and with three, he'd be rockin. 💃🕺

 

[Pete Thomas]

Yes you are correct, another typo by me! Play a F not F# over Dm7!

I thought so, however note that there is no F# in an A minor blues scale - hance it works very well for absolute beginners at blues impro.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Thanks for marking my post as a solution, but it was actually @turf3 who gave the most accurate answer to the question "finding the chords" in post #2.

 

[Colin the Bear]

It is very important that there are no typos in questions or answers. The question can change meaning, making the answer irrelevant or nonsensical. A wrong letter or the ommission or inclusion of a # or b can be misleading.

Please proof read before publishing. It only takes a minute and saves hours.

 

[JSL]

When I start actively thinking about chords and what notes to play I loose any spontaneity; it's almost as if my fingers know what to do.

In the heat of improvisation, you may want to be aware of the chords and able to hear the changes, but you don't have time to be 'thinking' about each chord and all the notes in it. That has to be internalized so you can use your ear to play melodically.

The time to think about the chords & chord tones, voice leading, etc. is in the practice room. Then shed all of that, arpeggios, etc., to get it fully under your fingers. Muscle memory will eventually take over, freeing you from actively thinking about it. For playing the blues in general (not just the minor blues), I'd suggest woodshedding the dominant chords in all 12 keys. Even the most basic 12-bar (major) blues will have 3 separate dominant chords (implying 3 different keys, although only one tonic). So, you really need to know all 12 dominant chords inside & out. The same for minor chords in a minor blues, which can also include at least one V7 (dominant) chord.

 

[JSL]

Please proof read before publishing. It only takes a minute and saves hours.

Absolutely. I wish I had a nickel (well maybe a dollar or should I say a pound) for every time I've proof-read a post and then had to edit it. This is especially important when listing notes, chords, numerals, sharps, flats, and the like. So easy to make a typo in those cases.

 

[cappers]

It is very important that there are no typos in questions or answers. The question can change meaning, making the answer irrelevant or nonsensical. A wrong letter or the ommission or inclusion of a # or b can be misleading.

Please proof read before publishing. It only takes a minute and saves hours.

Very sorry As a former academic I was always strict about presentation and proof reading before submission. Must be getting lazy or absent minded in my dotage.

 

[cappers]

In the heat of improvisation, you may want to be aware of the chords and able to hear the changes, but you don't have time to be 'thinking' about each chord and all the notes in it. That has to be internalized so you can use your ear to play melodically.

I am not saying I have any natural affinity or aptitude. I have a lifetime of listening to music, not as background noise but actively listening, trying to understand it and how it can be made so expressive and interesting. I think I have internalised certain phrases, chord tones and changes unconsciously. When playing 'by ear' without the dots I can usually feel or sense where the music is going, especially if I am familiar with it. Somehow my brain, mouth and fingers seem to do the work without conscious input from me. That doesn't negate knowing scales arpeggios et al as of course in time they will sink in and become part of the vocabulary.

I'm still a less than a year beginner with no prior. Some may think I am trying too hard or too fast but it's how I work, sink or swim. For example I knew how a 12 bar blues went even if I didn't know about I I I I / IV IV I I etc but the sound and feel was clear, da da da da, do do da da, di do da da. When I soloed this for the first time I was told it was melodic and sounded good, even though I played in Gminor.

Thank you for the advice re practicing dominant V7 chords and arpeggios.

 

[Pete Thomas]

but you don't have time to be 'thinking' about each chord and all the notes in it.

That's the truth.

 

[JSL]

I was told it was melodic and sounded good, even though I played in Gminor.

Thank you for the advice re practicing dominant V7 chords and arpeggios.

What do you mean by "even though I played in Gminor". If the tune you played was in Gminor, then that was correct. If not, I don't see how you would sound good. Sorry, I'm just not clear on what you're implying.

As to practicing dominant chords & arpeggios, that's the starting point. Next would be to practice musical licks & phrases based on those dominant chords, so you acquire some blues 'vocabulary'. A lot of that vocabulary can be found in the music. The rhythmic element is also very important.

 

[lydian]

What do you mean by "even though I played in Gminor". If the tune you played was in Gminor, then that was correct. If not, I don't see how you would sound good. Sorry, I'm just not clear on what you're implying.

As to practicing dominant chords & arpeggios, that's the starting point. Next would be to practice musical licks & phrases based on those dominant chords, so you acquire some blues 'vocabulary'. A lot of that vocabulary can be found in the music. The rhythmic element is also very important.

I think he meant tenor key, a whole step lower than the actual tune. You can get lucky on a few Gm blues notes - G and C on the A- chords, D and F on the D- chords. Or maybe he ended up with an "outside" sound at times that was cool. Who knows. Our idea of what sounds good may be very different than his.

 

[JSL]

I think he meant tenor key, a whole step lower than the actual tune. You can get lucky on a few Gm blues notes - G and C on the A- chords, D and F on the D- chords. Or maybe he ended up with an "outside" sound at times that was cool. Who knows. Our idea of what sounds good may be very different than his.

That's kind of what I was afraid he meant. Yeah, good point. I guess you could get away with playing G min pentatonics (if that's what he was doing) over the A min & D min chords. As a general rule, though, it's not at all a good idea to get in the habit of playing in the wrong key. You need to be fully aware of the tonic center.

@cappers you are aware of the need to transpose up a whole step from the concert key when on tenor. Correct? If not, you'll have to keep that in mind. Also, on the bandstand, your bandmates will call the tunes in concert key, so you'll have to know to play in the tenor key (up a whole step) from the concert key. And always communicate with your bandmates in concert key. Sounds confusing, but it's really quite simple once you get used to it.

 

[cappers]

What do you mean by "even though I played in Gminor". If the tune you played was in Gminor, then that was correct. If not, I don't see how you would sound good. Sorry, I'm just not clear on what you're implying.

The music sheet stated play solo in G minor blues, so I did. Afterwards I was told the music was wrong and referred to those in concert key so I should have done it in A minor blues.

By 'sounded good' I was referring to my impro style.

I think he meant tenor key, a whole step lower than the actual tune.

As above. I didn't aim to play "outside" or anything fancy.

As a general rule, though, it's not at all a good idea to get in the habit of playing in the wrong key.

Obviously. In this case there is mistake in the music (apparently it was transposed for tenor by a computer program). The other tenor player was aware of it and informed me as I wasn't.

you are aware of the need to transpose up a whole step from the concert key when on tenor.

Yes. When we tune up the keyboard and guitar play A and the tenors play B, the altos F#. I know I'm a beginner but I'm not that green! 😉

I guess you could get away with playing G min pentatonics (if that's what he was doing) over the A min & D min chords.

I used a few choice notes from the G minor blues. I have no idea what I did over the different chords, just followed my ears.

Anyway, I know what to do now thank you. I am grateful for the help.

 

[Colin the Bear]

There's a very useful exercise for embedding chord tones in your muscle memory. It's in Taming the Saxophone but I got it off a very experienced professional player and educator decades ago.

It involves cycling through four tone arpeggios(chords) in a major key, and then doing that round the circle of fifths

I can't recommend it highly enough. It will synchronise your ears, fingers and brain.

In C it goes.

CEGB DFAC EGBD FACE GBDF ACEG BDFA.

Which is

Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 Bm7b5

Alternate white notes on a keyboard.

When you've played through C, at a fair speed, three times with no mistakes, move to G. Repeat through the circle of fifths, CGDAEBF#... or until you get fed up. Include it in your daily warm up and the shapes will start to reside in your ears and fingers.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Here ya go.
Great for the movable guitar scale and vibes/marimba.

Please Santa. 🎶🏴‍☠️🎶

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Moveable Guitar scale.

 

[cappers]

There's a very useful exercise for embedding chord tones in your muscle memory. It's in Taming the Saxophone but I got it off a very experienced professional player and educator decades .

Here ya go.
Great for the movable guitar scale and vibes/marimba.

Thanks @Colin the Bear @PiccoloPirate
I have the TTS exercises and the up-a-third & down-a-second exercise.
I do them regularly but I’ll make it a daily habit.
Cheers.