Beginner theory Finding the chords for a 12 bar blues

[cappers]

I would be grateful for some advice on determining the chords in a tune when they aren't given.

I am trying to solo a 12 bar blues over Green Onions (arranged by Terry Pack?). The key for tenor is noted as Dmaj and the music sheet states "Solos in Gminor blues"

I was told this was a mistake and solos should be in Aminor not Gminor. It was suggested I use Amin, with a couple of Dmin and Emin, all blues scales.

Amin blue ACDEbEG
Dmin blue DFGAbAC
Emin blue EGABbBD

The general format for a 12-BB is
I / I / I / I /
IV / IV/ I / I /
V7/ V7/ I / I /

So that suggests to me
A-/A-/A-/A-/
D-/D-/A-/A-/
E-/E-/A-/A-/

But looking at the the backing track I can't determine from the notes which chord is which. To me it looks more like 1/1/1/1, 4/1/1/1, 5/4/1/1?

It looks like
A-/A-/A-/A-/
D-/A-/A-/A-/
E-/D-/A-/A-/

Am I yet again totally confused and barking up the wrong tree? I understand how chords are constructed but find it difficult to determine what chord is played from the notes given.

Apologies for a long post; I hope I have made myself clear.

 

[cappers]

Thanks @Pete Thomas (and others)
At my stage I'm aiming to keep it simple and I am very grateful for all the advice.
I just wanted to know how one finds the chords if not indicated and what blues scale to use. Your answer was nice and succinct!

 

[Pete Thomas]

I just wanted to know how one finds the chords if not indicated and what blues scale to use. Your answer was nice and succinct!

On a minor blues you can use the (tonic) minor blues scale over the whole lot, but also play with the changes if you want to be more complex.

On a major blues you can play a minor blues scale over the whole lot, but you can also play the changes

One way is to use major blues scale(s) but rather than tonic over the whole lot, following the roots of the chord. That is getting a bit more complex.

What doesn't work well with major blues is to play a (tonic) major blues over the whole lot.

 

[cappers]

OK sussed it (I hope).
Had a look at the guitar script/score/lead sheet???? whatever it's called and it shows a
Im/Im/Im/Im, IVm7/IVm7/Im/Im, Vm7/IVm7/Im/Im pattern.
So what I was told about there being two Dm7 and Em7 should be three Dm7 and one E7.
Making sense now.

 

[Pete Thomas]

So what I was told about there being two Dm7 and Em7 should be three Dm7 and one Em7.
Making sense now.

Not to me

 

[turf3]

I still think that 5 chord is a V7 NOT a Vmin7.

that's what it sounds like, that's what the generic "Real Book" type lead sheets show. The F natural in the guitar part just provides the "crunch" against the F# in the chord (don't know who's playing it).

I'd play a V7 there. That's what I'd do. That's how the vast majority of normal minor blues are constructed: minor on the 1 and 4, major (dominant 7) on the 5.

 

[cappers]

I still think that 5 chord is a V7 NOT a Vmin7.

Yes you are right, my typo.

 

[cappers]

Not to me

My tenor colleague said there are two E7 (he actually wrote Em) and two Dm7 (he wrote Dm):

"Am pentatonic or blues is dead right for the Am bars but don't forget you've got 2 bars of Dm and 2 bars of Em as well where you'll need those pentatonics/blues as well".

It appears it should be three bars of Dm7 (55,56,60) and one of E7 (59). I think that was the source of my confusion.

 

[turf3]

But you don't gather all the measures up and add up how many of each chord! You play the chord changes as they come to you.

It's a minor blues. A standard minor blues, no quick 4 or other variant. Four bars of 1, two bars of 4, two bars of 1, a bar of 5, a bar of 4, and two bars of 1.

Asking the guy next to you who doesn't know any more than you do, is rarely the path to an accurate answer.

Here! This purports to be in G minor. Work out with this.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5HeZ8r5Ejk&list=RDY5HeZ8r5Ejk&start_radio=1

 

[cappers]

Asking the guy next to you who doesn't know any more than you do, is rarely the path to an accurate answer.

Since you don't know this chap I think that's an unfair statement.

He's played for many years and very well as far as I can tell and he knows a lot more than I do. Maybe made a mistake, it was a quick WhatsApp message. I'll check with him on Thursday.

 

[turf3]

Since you don't know this chap I think that's an unfair statement.

He's played for many years and very well as far as I can tell and he knows a lot more than I do. Maybe made a mistake, it was a quick WhatsApp message. I'll check with him on Thursday.

Fair enough. Anyone can pop off quickly and make a minor error.

My suggestion is to spend some time with the backing track above and your ears. You're a grown adult, so you've heard lots of music, and you said the last time your group played this thing, you set the written stuff aside and used those things on the side of your head to guide you. So you've already got a frame work for dealing with this thing. I think that some time with a backing track will get you very far along the path to where you want to be with this tune.

 

[cappers]

....I think that some time with a backing track will get you very far along the path to where you want to be with this tune.

Here! This purports to be in G minor. Work out with this.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5HeZ8r5Ejk&list=RDY5HeZ8r5Ejk&start_radio=1

Thanks for the backing track, I'll give it a go tomorrow.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Turf3 was quicker on the draw. 🎯

I found that site earlier, but was in the metal shop until now, so why not try this one.
You've heard the GO's melody, so you're tainted, but make one up for these changes.
Knowledge of all things theory, is useful, but if the goal is to hear music, and solo over the changes, you might try to conjure up a solo, without your horn.
Think it, hum it or sing it, and if you like it, find it on your horn.
Once comfortable, try Stormy Monday's changes. 🎶🏴‍☠️🎶

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICPydA4Y5ro&list=PL-pZTNa1BzZZgfrOUSa6wJFUpbzERdNxY&index=12&pp=iAQB

 

[cappers]

but if the goal is to hear music, and solo over the changes, you might try to conjure up a solo, without your horn.
Think it, hum it or sing it, and if you like it, find it on your horn.

Thank you @PiccoloPirate

I have just finished listening to the GO backing track on headphones while I 'hum-provised' a really nice solo! Tomorrow I'll see if I can do the same on the horn.

I feel inspired now I know what's going on Again thanks to all for your help.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

"Hum-provise", should be added to the international music dictionary for soloing, with unlimited interpretations, of what the music brings to the mind.

 

[JSL]

So it should work if play notes from the A, D & Eminor blues scales

Actually no, that's not (usually) a good approach. In a blues tune (maj or min), if you're going to use a minor blues scale, it would be the blues scale based on the tonic. So, as already pointed out, in an Amin blues, you could use blues licks based on the A blues scale over all 3 chords, but not a different blues scale for each chord. Note I said 'blues licks', rather than just running the blues scale (but that's a topic that deserves a lot more than I want to write here). Listen to good blues players and how they use the notes in a blues scale.

When it comes to the chords, at this point, don't make this more complex than it is. For this tune, turf spelled it out here:

It's a minor blues. A standard minor blues, no quick 4 or other variant. Four bars of 1, two bars of 4, two bars of 1, a bar of 5, a bar of 4, and two bars of 1.

That's it, in a nutshell. I also agree it's very effective to sound that V7 chord in bar 10, using it's maj 3rd. Plenty more to be said, but it's been pretty well covered in previous posts. But let me re-emphasize the need to really LISTEN to the blues form. You should be able to hear each of those 3 chords and pick out where the change from one to the next occurs.

I will add this, though: Another common turnaround in bars 9 & 10 for a minor blues is / bVI7 / V7 /. Listen to B.B. King's "The Thrill is Gone" for one example.

 

[skeller047]

There's not a lot to add to the already great (and correct!) advice you've been given here @cappers. But there is an underlying principle that might help you with the next tune you have to work on.

You were told by your colleague to use the 3 minor pentatonic scales (or blues scales) corresponding to the 3 chords used in this tune. This is a very common approach these days, but I believe it's fundamentally misleading. Turf, Pete, JSL, Piccolo Pirate all said use the A blues scale throughout. That comes from many years experience playing the blues. But you want to "play the changes".

The key to playing changes is to understand what key you are in and use the ruling scale for that key all the time. If a chord comes up that has a note that isn't in that scale, change the scale to accommodate that note - for this example, the song is in A minor. Use the A blues scale, or A Dorian, as the home scale, then when you reach Dmin, change the F# to F-natural. Make no other changes. Similarly, when you get to the E7, change the G to G#.

Using a simple rule like "play the minor pentatonic scale when you see a minor 7th chord" does kinda work, but it also puts you in a kind of rut. Changing a base scale to accommodate a chord is not only more flexible, it keeps you focused on the key of the whole song. For a simple song like this, a 12 bar blues, that's critical.

 

[JSL]

Turf, Pete, JSL, Piccolo Pirate all said use the A blues scale throughout. That comes from many years experience playing the blues. But you want to "play the changes".

Just to be clear, skeller, I simply said you CAN play the A blues scale throughout (rather than a separate blues scale for each chord). But I definitely didn't say you have to, or should, always do that. I might use notes from the blues scale exclusively with certain blues tunes, or through one chorus, or when it fits the situation. But in general, I like to play the changes, using blues scale licks as 'spice', rather than the main ingredient. It can be effective to use blues scale licks over the IV chord, or even over the V chord, but not all the time.

 

[thomsax]

Listen to Steve Cropper and how Booker T and MG's song "Green Onions" (Booker T Jones, Steve Cropper, Lewie Steinberg, Al Jackson Jr) became a hit. They didn't write the song, they just played it. Later on maybe ..?

View: https://youtu.be/o1emR12qb_Y?si=2sJbMyBpVywxOH2i


I was brought up (older siblings) with this kind of music. I just love Stax music. "Green Onion" is a "puchy" song. A clear beat with hard driven bass. Terrible versions like Harry James .... and other tasteless versions are nearly killing the song. I don't think "Green Oinions" is a good sax song. Hard for me to get the sax into the song. I guess "The Memphis Horns" (Wayne Jackson trumpet, Andrew Love tenorsax and sometimes also Joe Arnold tenorsax and Floyd Newman baritonesax among others) were resting when Booker T and the MG's played "Green Onions".

But I like to play along with Steve Cropper's guitar on tenorsax. The Stratocastor/Telecastor is the rocksaxophists best friend. I use to practice with songs like this. But it's just me and my sax in the room ... . My own homage to Booker T and the MG's ..... .

View: https://youtu.be/0oox9bJaGJ8?si=3axbXidgy8xL89et

 

[thomsax]

Double

 

[cappers]

Thanks for additional input, we seem to have come full circle.
Originally I was going to use notes from the Am blue scale - I did it before in Gm blue in error. Then I was told it would be better to include notes from Dm7 and E7 in the appropriate places.

If a chord comes up that has a note that isn't in that scale, change the scale to accommodate that note - for this example, the song is in A minor. Use the A blues scale, or A Dorian, as the home scale, then when you reach Dmin, change the F# to F-natural. Make no other changes. Similarly, when you get to the E7, change the G to G#.

I intend to do just that. Not running up and down scales or bunging in arpeggios, just using notes from Am Blues as my base and adding some 'spice' where appropriate such as you and others mentioned - F# over Dm7 and G# over E7.

At my stage of development I need to keep it simple. I seem to be able to hear where a melody is going and play something that fits. When I start actively thinking about chords and what notes to play I loose any spontaneity; it's almost as if my fingers know what to do.

I'll play about with the melody and add some 'spice' where it seems right. A few notes, use of repetition, dynamics and space with a simple rhythm should do the trick.

For next months gig I've been asked if I'd like to solo on Summertime, Oye Como Va, Moaning' as well as our finale Green Onions. I think the band leader has more faith in my abilities than I!
Carry on Blowing (sounds like a 'Carry On' film....Kenneth Williams as band leader, Sid James on drums, Charles Hawtrey on double bass, Barbara Windsor on tenor sax, Bernard Bresslaw on alto sax, Hattie Jacques on piano....)