Beginner theory Finding the chords for a 12 bar blues

[cappers]

I would be grateful for some advice on determining the chords in a tune when they aren't given.

I am trying to solo a 12 bar blues over Green Onions (arranged by Terry Pack?). The key for tenor is noted as Dmaj and the music sheet states "Solos in Gminor blues"

I was told this was a mistake and solos should be in Aminor not Gminor. It was suggested I use Amin, with a couple of Dmin and Emin, all blues scales.

Amin blue ACDEbEG
Dmin blue DFGAbAC
Emin blue EGABbBD

The general format for a 12-BB is
I / I / I / I /
IV / IV/ I / I /
V7/ V7/ I / I /

So that suggests to me
A-/A-/A-/A-/
D-/D-/A-/A-/
E-/E-/A-/A-/

But looking at the the backing track I can't determine from the notes which chord is which. To me it looks more like 1/1/1/1, 4/1/1/1, 5/4/1/1?

It looks like
A-/A-/A-/A-/
D-/A-/A-/A-/
E-/D-/A-/A-/

Am I yet again totally confused and barking up the wrong tree? I understand how chords are constructed but find it difficult to determine what chord is played from the notes given.

Apologies for a long post; I hope I have made myself clear.

 

[turf3]

Well, there is no single standard format for 12 bar blues. The most common is I-I-I-I IV-IV-I-1 V7-IV-I-I

but individual tunes vary a lot. Many have a "quick IV" which is the IV chord in the 2nd bar; many use a II-V7-I-V for the last 4 bars.

Just had a listen to "Green Onions" - it's a classic minor blues

Im-Im-Im-Im
IVm7-IVm7-Im-Im
V7-IVm7-Im-Im

Even in minor blues the V is almost always major, the V7 (not VMaj7).

I have no idea what chart you're looking at, but what you've shown above looks strange as hell. If it's minor blues, two sharps would indicate B minor to me, or A minor concert. It looks like an inadequately copy-edited computer-typeset chart. The doubling of C natural accidentals when not needed is a real red flag to me, indicating that a transposition isn't right. In a 3rd tenor part you're playing all kinds of inner voicings so trying to tease out the chords from that is not easy.

I've given you the chord progression of "Green Onions" above. Best to figure out by your ear which key the tune you're playing is in, then use that progression.

 

[turf3]

I'll point out that there is no single "standard" format for the blues form, even though it's readily identifiable when you hear it. Mostly it's a three part call and response kind of thing:

When you see me coming, heist your window high
When you see me coming, heist your window high
When you see me going, hang your head and cry

Except when it isn't!

Discussion of the detailed variants in 12 bar blues could go for many hours - and of course if you insert minor blues into the mix it's even more so.

 

[lydian]

Yeah, whoever wrote that chart didn't understand key signatures. But the licks in it are clearly A blues.

 

[cappers]

I have no idea what chart you're looking at, but what you've shown above looks strange as hell. If it's minor blues, two sharps would indicate B minor to me, or A minor concert. It looks like an inadequately copy-edited computer-typeset chart. The doubling of C natural accidentals when not needed is a real red flag to me, indicating that a transposition isn't right. In a 3rd tenor part you're playing all kinds of inner voicings so trying to tease out the chords from that is not easy.

I've given you the chord progression of "Green Onions" above. Best to figure out by your ear which key the tune you're playing is in, then use that progression.

Yeah, whoever wrote that chart didn't understand key signatures. But the licks in it are clearly A blues.

Thanks both. Similar to the reply I got when I first queried it with the other tenor player. He wrote back "Not all our music is written as it should be, especially if it's a Terry Pack arrangement. When people use software to notate music, the transpose type functions don't always work as expected.
If you look at the tenor music for Green Onions, it's notated as Dmaj. If you look through the notes, every C is marked as a natural. There are no Fs. The music should be notated as Cmaj.
On the concert parts, it's notated as Cmaj, but in the notes, all Bs are marked as Bb, and there's no Es. It should be notated as Bbmaj.
The end result is that the tenor part is in Am and concert parts are in Gm.

 

[cappers]

Just had a listen to "Green Onions" - it's a classic minor blues

Im-Im-Im-Im
IVm7-IVm7-Im-Im
V7-IVm7-Im-Im

So it should work if play notes from the A, D & Eminor blues scales
A-/A-/A-/A-/
D-/D-/A-/A-/
E-/D-/A-/A-/

Just checking because it looks like bars 52 & 56 are the same making the second 4 bars D-/A-/A-/A-

Thank you.

 

[turf3]

The 9th bar is E7 NOT E min 7.

You can make something that kinda, sorta, sounds all right by slathering an "A minor blues scale" over the whole thing. The entire concept of a "blues scale" is one (usually pentatonic) that fits over all three of the chords in the progression.

That's a starting point, but the truth is that pouring the blues scale all over everything rather than playing the changes leads to bland solos that don't go anywhere. It won't sound WRONG but it won't sound RIGHT either.

Now if you make it a point to emphasize that G# in the 9th bar, that's the thing that makes an E7 an E7, now you've created a sense of motion and progression. If you play something that has G# in the 9th bar, F natural in the 10th bar, and A natural in the 11 bar, you're pointing up the major third that identifies the V7, the minor third that identifies the IV7, and then you bring it home to A.

Similarly, depending on context, I'd probably want to call out the D note in the fifth bar to indicate that you're starting the second line of the song.

Now to your written part there - it's a very common thing in jazz writing to use the same notes over a different chord, the notes interact with the chord differently. That little descending phrase fits over a Dmin7 just fine, and it leads you to the A minor in the 7th bar. Listen to the song! It's got two bars of IV there.

You see that last little bit I wrote there? "Listen to the song!" That is THE KEY to deciding what to play. If you tell John Lee Hooker to play this tune, or you tell Phil Woods to play this tune, or you tell Rahsaan Roland Kirk to play this tune, they will address it VERY DIFFERENTLY. Their rhythm sections, (Hooker IS his rhythm section) respond accordingly. I'd expect Hooker to "smooth out" even the rudimentary chord progression, playing more or less consistent stuff over whatever the chords are, and maybe near the end dropping in the clear chord progression as the climax. Woods I'd expect to insert a lot of alternative notes, especially using the bebop trick of superimposing brief major sounding phrases over a minor chord. Kirk I'd expect to introduce various extra-tonal devices (whistles, hollers), and he might play two horns at once over it, one as a drone, or he might switch and play a couple choruses of lush Ben Webster tenor over it, or who knows what Rahsaan would come up with!

 

[cappers]

You can make something that kinda, sorta, sounds all right by slathering an "A minor blues scale" over the whole thing.

I don't want to use Am blues over all of it, only where appropriate. That's why I mentioned the use of Dm and Em blues too so I can play .

My question was the chord progressions from the notes in this arrangement. I've checked the two other tenor parts, and bars 52 & 56 are the same suggesting IV-I-I-I rather than IV-IV-I-I.

So for an old beginner like me please would someone lay out in simple terms the chord sequence for this solo given the notes in the arrangement above, and I'll do the rest (including @turfs kind suggestions).

My fellow tenor said there are 8 Am, and 2 each of Dm and Em.

I have listened to several versions including a recording of our band but I still can't work it out.

Thank you

 

[turf3]

...

So for an old beginner like me please would someone lay out in simple terms the chord sequence for this solo ...

I just did.

In A minor:

Amin - A min - A min - A min
Dm7 - Dm7 - Am - Am
E7 - Dm7 - Am - Am

Just cue up the tune (Booker T) and play along over it.

 

[cappers]

I just did.

In A minor:

Amin - A min - A min - A min
Dm7 - Dm7 - Am - Am
E7 - Dm7 - Am - Am

Just cue up the tune (Booker T) and play along over it.

I know you did and I'm grateful!
However, as I said above, the other tenor player said, maybe incorrectly, that there are two E7s. If so where is the other one?

Sorry to be pedantic.

 

[lydian]

@cappers There's a big difference between E- and E7. You really need to respect the actual chords and not try to simplify by changing all of them to minor triads. That's wrong and changes to song. @turf3 's chords are spot on. But the A blues scale will definitely work over the whole tune and is a reasonable simplification for a beginner.

When you get a bit more advanced, learn voice leading. For example, you can play a line with a G# over the E7 which has been an avoid note up to that point and really outlines the changes nicely. Emphasizing these "changes" really makes a solo melodic and interesting.

 

[lydian]

I know you did and I'm grateful!
However, as I said above, the other tenor player said, maybe incorrectly, that there are two E7s. If so where is the other one?

Sorry to be pedantic.

Sorry, but he's wrong. Just listen to the tune yourself. That said, your band may very well have deviated from the original.

 

[cappers]

There's a big difference between E- and E7. You really need to respect the actual chords and not try to simplify by changing all of them to minor triads.

@lydian I can see and hear the difference between E- EGB and E7 EG#BD. I am trying to 'respect the actual chords' and didn't think I'm changing anything to minor triads. All I wanted to know how to find the actual chords from the notation provided.

I soloed at the last gig and was told it was quite good but it was using the G minor blues scale which didn't quite fit. So I'm trying to do it properly using the appropriate scale in the appropriate places.

Sorry, but he's wrong. Just listen to the tune yourself. That said, your band may very well have deviated from the original.

He may be wrong, the arrangement might be incorrect but I don't know. I'll listen to our version again and see if I can get it.

Thanks for your patience.

 

[lydian]

@lydian I can see and hear the difference between E- EGB and E7 EG#BD. I am trying to 'respect the actual chords' and didn't think I'm changing anything to minor triads. All I wanted to know how to find the actual chords from the notation provided.

I soloed at the last gig and was told it was quite good but it was using the G minor blues scale which didn't quite fit. So I'm trying to do it properly using the appropriate scale in the appropriate places.

He may be wrong, the arrangement might be incorrect but I don't know. I'll listen to our version again and see if I can get it.

Thanks for your patience.

I'm just going by your posts, all of which have E- instead of E7.

G blues is not a great fit. Has a Bb, F and D which are going to clash pretty badly.

Any melody can be played over any chord progression. You can't just take a bunch of melody notes and deduce a progression from those alone. They melody Mary Had a Little Lamb works over an infinity of progressions. But since you know the tune is supposed to be Green Onions, you can certainly see those A blues lines and deduce it's in A (tenor key).

 

[turf3]

I know you did and I'm grateful!
However, as I said above, the other tenor player said, maybe incorrectly, that there are two E7s. If so where is the other one?

Sorry to be pedantic.

Why are we arguing about this? LISTEN TO THE RECORD (Booker T). There are two very clear iv min7s in the second line. The third line very clearly goes V7 - iv min7 - i min.

***************************************************************************************************

OK, so in the interest of completeness, I listened to several versions.

Booker T, the Blues Brothers, Tom Petty and Milt Buckner have all recorded versions of this as straight minor blues, like I wrote it up above.

Harry James and Count Basie recorded versions where they slipped into major blues for the blowing sections. (And the Harry James video I saw actually had a quick 4 here and there, except when it didn't.)

I'd suggest you get a look at the piano or guitar parts to see whether your arrangement stays in minor blues throughout or slides into major blues for the all-skate. I know the chart says "solos in minor blues", but it looks like the copy is fraught with errors and strangenesses, so it's worth confirming. If the rhythm section's staying in minor blues throughout, then I've just given you the changes.

 

[turf3]

And don't get too caught up in scales.

You could play a perfectly acceptable and even stylistically appropriate solo by using only the notes E and G, in different rhythmic combinations. Check out how Louis Armstrong would play one note for three choruses of blues.

 

[lydian]

Listen to @turf3 . You could play an entire solo using one or two notes and make it work. There's no need to reverse engineer anything from those charts. The recording has all the answers, assuming your band is playing the tune, or intends to play it like the recording. We've already confirmed the correct key, which is really all that's needed when the tune is already known.

 

[cappers]

Thank you one and all. There are times when I think I've 'got it' but often I don't.

I am studying theory, chords, progressions and am beginning to get to grips with it but this 'score' (what does one call the notation for a tune?) really confused me. Incorrect key, strange notations, a 12BB format that didn't make sense etc.

When I last soloed on it, even though it was in G minor blues (only doing what it said!) apparently I made a good attempt. I stuck to about 5 notes with repetition, spaces and rhythm, using bits of the melody. I didn't actually think about notes, chords etc, just went with the music if that makes sense.

Again thank you for the advice and patience. Can we leave it there? anymore and my brain will explode. Give it a few days more listening and reading. I have month to get it right.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I don't want to use Am blues over all of it, only where appropriate.

It's totally appropriate to use an Am blues over the whole tune. I would ofetn do that, as would a lot of other blues players. ( idon't mean run up and down a blues scale, but use blues licks derived from the Am blues.

All I wanted to know how to find the actual chords from the notation provided.

You often cannot do that. You get the chords from (a) your ears or (b) the chord symbols on the sheet music or (c) someone telling you it's a minor blues in Am.

 

[turf3]

The whole concept of "blues scales" is that it's one scale that fits over the entire form of the tune.

Or, you can do what Harry, and his piano player, and the clarinetist do here: play the changes.

Note Buddy Rich on drums, too.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvBXKCFiZnI&list=RDYvBXKCFiZnI&start_radio=1


Harry's solo is still minor blues. Piano solo, major with a quick 4. Clarinet major blues with a quick 4. Bass solo same.

The two shout choruses are still major but they drop the quick 4.

You can see that there can be considerable variation even within a charted tune, and it still remains recognizable.

Teachers ought to dig out stuff like this for their jazz bands instead of those same old tired Nestico-light scholastic charts.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDMd8GrXlM&list=RDYvBXKCFiZnI&index=2