Saxophones Vito models and parts

[turf3]

I'm sorry, what are we talking about here? The OP's horn is obviously a Yamaha 21 or 23, stamped "Vito". Are we seriously entertaining alternate explanations?

 

[Ghr9204]

I'm sorry, what are we talking about here? The OP's horn is obviously a Yamaha 21 or 23, stamped "Vito". Are we seriously entertaining alternate explanations?

The OP left the thread open to more than his sax - "Saxophones - Vito models and parts". Thus I believe these discussions are appropriate and on topic.

 

[Woodpad]

Its not only the history that is messy. Just found a Vito alto 14000 higher serial number than mine which says Japan and has no model number. Leblanc is not into administration.

Pardon our interruption...

 

[turf3]

Its not only the history that is messy. Just found a Vito alto 14000 higher serial number than mine which says Japan and has no model number. Leblanc is not into administration.

Pardon our interruption...

Another Yamaha Vito.

Trust me, I was there at the time. Those Yamavitos were everywhere. That one's a Yamaha.

 

[Tuppertn]

Its not only the history that is messy. Just found a Vito alto 14000 higher serial number than mine which says Japan and has no model number. Leblanc is not into administration.

Because...

They were not concerned about what someone 45 or 50 years later would try to figure out about the exact provenance of a basic,, mass produced, student instrument. We're not talking about a lost Van Gogh here.

Serial numbers are generally unhelpful. A YAS-23 is a YAS-23 no matter who slapped the parts together or where they did it. Lelanc produced them in the cheapest way possible at the time. There are untold multitudes of them out there. You can't wade through one page of Ebay's US listings for "alto saxophone" without stepping on three of them.

EDIT: Turf beat me by 3 seconds... 😉

 

[Ghr9204]

You can't wade through one page of Ebay's US listings for "alto saxophone" without stepping on three of them.

I noticed that same observation too, when even browsing sax listings.
Here in Clovis surrounded by 18 dairy farms, one may need their wading boots in the field to avoid cow pies, but on the net I don't mind tip toeing through the Vito tulips. 😉
Seriously though, whether Vito or under the Yanasigawa / Yamaha / Jupiter labels, opens up opportunities for the saxist to obtain a decent intermediate grade saxophone with judicious shopping.

Also, for the advanced / pro player, it IMHO makes a good option for a back up horn, especially in venues where one would not want to chance damage or loss to their more expensive and harder to replace pro horn.

 

[Woodpad]

In the Netherlands you see four or five Yamavitoses in a year. Think I make a list of all known Vito model type codes and do some overtime administration on who made it.

 

[turf3]

...A YAS-23 is a YAS-23 no matter who slapped the parts together or where they did it. Lelanc produced them in the cheapest way possible at the time....

Actually, Yamaha produced them. In a variety of factories in a variety of locations, with varying degrees of vertical integration. Again, this is what people who manage FACTORIES, making things to SELL AT A PROFIT, do.

As the old medical school adage has it, "If you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras". If you see a Vito alto sax with a keyguard that looks just like that of a YAS-21 or 23 but with slight shape changes in a couple places - and looks nothing like anything from Beaugnier or KHS - the most reasonable assumption is that for some reason Yamaha used some keyguards with a slight variation in detail design. Probably they had it stamped by a different company that interpreted the drawing a bit differently when making the tool, and since it was perfectly functional they accepted the slight shape difference in the perforated holes.

I am pretty certain that LeBlanc themselves DID make in their own factory a small number of saxophones (Rational and Semi-Rational System), but that was considerably earlier and those were positioned as professional line instruments, not labeled as Vito. And for all I know those may have been contracted from Beaugnier or similar, as CKD kits to LB.

 

[turf3]

This history is messy, and it’s long ago enough that information has been lost. It might be too late to find people with intact memories, and I suspect a lot of stuff wasn’t written down. Conn-Selmer may have some records stored in an archive site somewhere...

I rather doubt Conn-Selmer would have data from LeBlanc dating back to the 1960s.

 

[turf3]

And keep in mind that cases are essentially fungible consumable items. So if you find your Bundy II in a Selmer case it doesn't make it a Mark 6. When cases get too ratty to use, or get soaked in a flood, or whatever, you throw them away and replace them with a case that fits. In the days before internet sales, you just went to the music store and they looked through the pile and found something that worked and didn't smell too bad.

 

[cappers]

If you see a Vito alto sax with a keyguard that looks just like that of a YAS-21 or 23 but with slight shape changes in a couple places - and looks nothing like anything from Beaugnier or KHS - the most reasonable assumption is that for some reason Yamaha used some keyguards with a slight variation in detail design.

The low C/Eb cluster, extended key guard, vertical pants guard and the bow brace all look like Yamaha. However they have cut outs in the shape of a stylised 'V'. Most pronounced on the bow brace, almost the same as the Vito logo on the bell.
So I would see it as a Yamaha Vito. Certainly looks like my YAS-25 except mine is all gold, no silver keyword.

 

[Ghr9204]

"If you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras".

When I think Vito, I think Zebras because their stripes are pretty. 😉

Actually I enjoyed your detailed explanation. 👍

Actually Zebras ➠

are related to donkeys. Neighbour across our street was a bit ecentric. He has a stable in the back of his house. (We all live on one acre lots.) He kept a zebra and a camel. In the morning we would hear the braying of a donkey from that zebra. During the various county fairs throughout the area, he would put both animals on display.

Thinking of profitability, to not hurt Yamaha's brand line, it would be understandable in these very large production contracts into the 10's of thousands to make various minor tooling alterations to help disguise / distance the Vito from Yamaha.

Thus there were changes to the cutouts in the lower pad guards, the Le Blanc or Le Blanc Holton symbols stamped into the neck keywork and bell brace.

But as you allude to, it plays and feels like a Yamaha. My Vito feels and plays like a Jupiter.

 

[qualitybandrepair]

So, here is my contribution. Found this thread because I've obtained one of the strangest Vito saxes I've ever seen. The serial number lookup makes me think its probably a Jupiter stencil, but the side keys have this wierd black plastic mechanism (well one broke off but the other is present) and the Eflat/low C mechanism is a wierd shape. Anyone seen one of these before? Is this a 7133?

 

[qualitybandrepair]

 

[qualitybandrepair]

Have you ever in your life seen anything like these black plastic mechanisms before? This is a first for me? I don't think I can find a replacement for the lost one. I'm going to try custom shaping a key i bought from KHS into something that fits instead.

 

[turf3]

From what I can tell, it's just a piece of black plastic with two perpendicular holes in it that mate with pin shaped extensions on the two key arms. This allows for some sliding motion. Probably made of plastic for ease of sliding and no need for cushioning material to prevent clacking. Is the cork to limit travel on the bottom of the plastic piece, or somewhere else in the key train?

There must have been at least a dozen different approaches to these key joints through the years.

- no joint - just a long long key
- Selmer's ball joints, that lose the grease and clack
- Spring opened key held down by the more strongly sprung arm - two countervailing springs
- forks on the pad key - just one spring
- forks on the long key - just one spring
- just one arm from the long key, that pushes down on the pad key arm, pad key sprung normally closed, just one spring
- Now what appears to be a KHS slider block
- who knows what all else.

You've got two rotational motions at right angles to each other and unavoidable sliding motion. The engineer in me starts thinking "flexure?" and the mechanic says "sheesh - the problem's already been solved multiple times, just do one of those!"

 

[Ghr9204]

Anyone seen one of these before? Is this a 7133?

Yes. Vito you are working on is an earlier model like mine and those black plastic key pivots are on my 7133T tenor. Your Vito bell stamping is exactly like mine, too. Mine came in an earlier LeBlanc Brown plastic covered rectangular plywood case with auburn red felt interior. Closest to this stencil so far seems to be the Jupiter JTS-689.

Trying to place a date, best inferred is possibly 1980's. (There is much unknown, data is sparse and appears certain Jupiter Vito years and models may have been regionalized as it appears some did not cross tech's workbenches.)

I have a later model Vito alto, and they revised the key pivots to not use this plastic part plus in a black plastic ply case with black felt interior. Plus, the Vito stamped engraving on the bell is a bit prettier.

Appears one could use a plastic rod, drill a hole down the center or use hard tubing and ream hole, then a hole across. (I have model aircraft plastic "nyrod" pushrod material.) I imagine one could probably fabricate one from aluminum or brass rod.

Our techs, @Stephen Howard or @PigSquealer or @JayeNM would have a better idea than I and/or a parts source.

 

[JayeNM]

Have you ever in your life seen anything like these black plastic mechanisms before? This is a first for me? I don't think I can find a replacement for the lost one. I'm going to try custom shaping a key i bought from KHS into something that fits instead.

It is by Jupiter, albeit I agree the plastic nib connectors are reminiscent of old Yamaha 21s and I have never seen that detail on Jupes before. Interesting

 

[Ghr9204]

the plastic nib connectors are reminiscent of old Yamaha 21s

I think my old 1971 Yamaha YAS-61 pro alto had them, too. Perhaps used for quieter key action?

 

[qualitybandrepair]

Yes. Vito you are working on is an earlier model like mine and those black plastic key pivots are on my 7133T tenor. Your Vito bell stamping is exactly like mine, too. Mine came in an earlier LeBlanc Brown plastic covered rectangular plywood case with auburn red felt interior. Closest to this stencil so far seems to be the Jupiter JTS-689.

Trying to place a date, best inferred is possibly 1980's. (There is much unknown, data is sparse and appears certain Jupiter Vito years and models may have been regionalized as it appears some did not cross tech's workbenches.)

I have a later model Vito alto, and they revised the key pivots to not use this plastic part plus in a black plastic ply case with black felt interior. Plus, the Vito stamped engraving on the bell is a bit prettier.

Appears one could use a plastic rod, drill a hole down the center or use hard tubing and ream hole, then a hole across. (I have model aircraft plastic "nyrod" pushrod material.) I imagine one could probably fabricate one from aluminum or brass rod.

Our techs, @Stephen Howard or @PigSquealer or @JayeNM would have a better idea than I and/or a parts source.

Nice, good to know. I've worked on 20+ vito saxes and this is the first one with these plastic pivots. I dont love them. They seem fragile and crappy. I'm definitely going to come up with an alternative.