Saxophone beginners Specific Aspect of Embouchure ( sorry )

[Pete Effamy]

Right. Last post on this. Really! I am playing away here and I've found a 2.5 Rico is easier to play and doesn't close off the high notes so easily. I'm using this. Anyway, after playing for about 15-20 mins I'm getting muscle fatigue and finding it hard to keep hitting higher notes, which I assume is normal but I'm getting fatigued in the area outlined in the attached illustrated (and deeply attractive) picture.

I wonder if fatigue in this particular area is an indication of doing something wrong or whether it is normal. Can you tell me please?

It’s because you’re lifting heavier weights - harder reed. Muscle fatigue.

 

[Pete Thomas]

It’s because you’re lifting heavier weights - harder reed. Muscle fatigue.

Agreed. First, try a softer reed.

 

[Pete Effamy]

2.5 isn't a "hard" reed, but that doesn't mean that it isn't too hard for what you're capable of or what / how you want to play. A larger tip opening will make a reed feel harder than a smaller tip opening. So as I'm sure you know; there are balances / trade-off's / and more practice of course, in order to get to a solid basic technique. This could (most probably will) be measured in years, rather than months.

The trade-off's:

While you say that higher notes are more dependable with the harder reed, at the low end of the sax it will become harder. But, it depends on what control you want down there, or even if you find yourself playing down there much (though we should try to play across the whole compass of the horn equally well). Even playing a low note with focus (full sound, not airy), let alone quietly might become impossible.

A harder reed could make you bite (more) rather than "support" the reed. The reed will need some pressure in order to make it vibrate. With a harder reed you may end up merely using more pressure to bend it to the same place:

Clarinettist Eddie Daniels said that he found that he was doing this when he recorded his album The Five Seasons, and because of the control needed in the Classical passages he was biting harder and causing his lip to go - needing breaks (not great in the studio (££$$££$$). So he switched to a softer reed.

 

[wooster]

Thank you all for your replies. I do hand some 2s but I thought they were proving top soft for me. I will give them another go and see how they are. I could play on them all day with out much tiredness but I thought I should try and exercise my muscles.

Are the particular areas of my lip which are getting tired indicative of incorrect embouchure or are they simply a result of the reed being too hard

 

[Pete Thomas]

I could play on them all day with out much tiredness but I thought I should try and exercise my muscles.

That sounds ideal, a bit of tiredness may be inevitable if playing all day.

Are the particular areas of my lip which are getting tired indicative of incorrect embouchure or are they simply became the reed is hard

If it's the earlier image showing areas below and slightly outward from your nostrils, then it's not something I've experienced. Your upper jaw and central part of upper lip lip aren't actually doing much re: embouchure. But the reason I said first try a softer reed was because it's the easest thing to try, and not because I'm an expert on faciology (I made that up). I believe the human body can be odd in that symptoms can appear that don't seem to the lay person to be related. ie I'm not a medical professional.

In my experience reeds being too hard can manifest as aching jaw, cheeks, pain in lower lip where teeth cut into it and difficulty with low notes, pianissomo and versatility of tone.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Are the particular areas of my lip which are getting tired indicative of incorrect embouchure or are they simply a result of the reed being too hard

Most probably just too hard. But, seeing as I can no more see you than hear you… 😀

 

[ghostler]

I would follow the advice to use a softer reed until your endurance builds up.

A harder reed will tire your lips and cheeks quicker. The muscles surround the mouth need training, just like a weight lifter does training. With constant practise, your lip and cheek muscles get toned up, stronger, giving you greater duration.

Back in the early 1970's stationed at the U.S. Naval School of Music, I was playing my clarinet about 8 hours a day. I had 3 one-hour periods of concert band, and hour of drill band after school, and was also on a mandatory 10 hours of practise a week. (One checked out a practise room, length spent was recorded by one of their employees.)

Initially, I tired out quickly, had to take many short breaks. When I completed 6 months of school, I could blow my clarinet for 2 hours straight without tiring.

As long as you continue to practise regularly, your embouchure will strengthen and so will your endurance.

 

[cappers]

@wooster As a relative beginner I had trouble going from 2 to 2.5s (Alexander DC reeds on a Yamaha 5C mpc).

The 2s were too soft and closing up when pushed (not my embouchure, teacher checked!) so tried 2.5s. Took a few hours of playing before I adjusted. Tip that worked for me is to stop when your embouchure starts to feel tired or you lose control. Have a rest for half an hour then try again.

I'm sure it's been mentioned but the 'blow-a-kiss/grin' exercise helps. Really pucker those lips, trout pout-goldfish mouth without botox. Do it 50x whenever you can and really stretch those facial muscles. I also find making a tight pout and flexing my lower lip trying not to move my chin/jaw builds lips control. Helps if you put your finger in your mouth as if its the mpc.

Good luck, you'll get there!

 

[Pete Thomas]

I'm sure it's been mentioned but the 'blow-a-kiss/grin' exercise helps.

Or my alternative = smile/whistle.

 

[ghostler]

The 2s were too soft and closing up when pushed (not my embouchure, teacher checked!) so tried 2.5s. Took a few hours of playing before I adjusted. Tip that worked for me is to stop when your embouchure starts to feel tired or you lose control. Have a rest for half an hour then try again.

I've found that using a quality reed clipper, trimming off a hair's width at a time helps adjust that softer reed. This allows one to say, obtain that 2.25 strength reed one could not obtain otherwise.

 

[cappers]

With constant practise, your lip and cheek muscles get toned up, stronger....

My lower lip has always been a bit thin but since taking up the sax it has filled out, definitely thicker and more defined.

Also it seems to have straightened one of my upper front incisors which was lower than the other and slightly angled!

My lung capacity has also improved.

Win win win!

 

[ghostler]

Also it seems to have straightened one of my upper front incisors which was lower than the other and slightly angled!

You could be like Ahnold Scwartzneggar, "Around my jaw, doze are my muscles." 😉

 

[wooster]

I had a look at my lips in action and for some reason, I'm pulling my top lip pretty tight and my bottom lip is in a bit. I've tried a bit more of a pout and that seems to make things easier. Whether or not it is an ideal embouchure I don't know. I feel I'm probably still putting too much thought into this. I'm going to pout for a bit and see how it goes. I feel like I should stick with the 2.5 for a bit longer as I really did feel the 2s were just a bit soft for me.

 

[ghostler]

I've tried a bit more of a pout and that seems to make things easier.

I remember a photo from my H. Closé clarinet book, showing a relaxed natural-neutral expression with chin pulled down a little, which I think you refer to as a "pout".

Kenny G. smiles while he plays the sop from the side of his mouth, which is more for showmanship and popularity before the video camera. It is a deviation but then he's pocketing a considerable amount of quid for it. It is not me to mimic that.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I remember a photo from my H. Closé clarinet book, showing a relaxed natural-neutral expression with chin pulled down a little, which I think you refer to as a "pout".

Kenny G. smiles while he plays the sop from the side of his mouth, which is more for showmanship and popularity before the video camera. It is a deviation but then he's pocketing a considerable amount of quid for it. It is not me to mimic that.

The “pout” embouchure is very much bottom lip out, not clarinet-like. Think Johnny Griffin.

Steve Neff wrote an interesting article on the subject:

The Best Saxophone Embouchure: Where’s That Bottom Lip?

The Best Saxophone Embouchure: Where's That Bottom Lip?

www.neffmusic.com

 

[wooster]

The one thing I've found is that - within limits - each player seems to have their own embouchure. Maybe I'm currently "pouting" because it seems my bottom lip naturally is thin and not very supportive?

Apart from being useful to me, I find it interesting to hear about other people's approach to their embouchure and it seems like Steve Neff tried a few.

 

[cappers]

I was confused at first with all the difference of opinions about embouchure.

My teacher originally suggested the more 'classical' lip-over-bottom-teeth style but I have found that a pouty bottom-lip-against-teeth 'jazz' style works better for me.

Everybody's mouth, lips, teeth and oral cavity are different and I think one's embouchure has to be adapted accordingly. What works for you rather than trying to force a particular style favoured by others. If you sound OK then it works!

More experienced players might not agree so take their advice not mine!