Saxophone beginners Specific Aspect of Embouchure ( sorry )

[wooster]

I am returning to sax after a break following a bit of a jaw problem. I want to make sure my embouchure is right from the start and doesn’t cause me any future problems: that’s the idea anyway!

I’m puzzled about one particular aspect of embouchure formation. Up until now I’ve:

1. rested my top teeth on the mouthpiece lightly
2. Kept my jaw loose
3. Gently pushed my bottom lip out and rested it lightly against the moouthpiece
4. Then pushed the sides of my mouth to seal the gaps between mouth and 'piece

The bit I’m confused about is this; when I draw the sides of my mouth to the 'piece in step 4 above, should I be pulling the corners of my lips towards my ears ... or ... should I be pushing them away from my ears like I was blowing out a candle or blowing a kiss?

So far I've been giong for the kissing thing but I saw a video today where the guy seemed to suggest the corners of the mouth towards the ears. Now, I’m not talking about sneering in a sort of mad joker type thing but should the slight movement be towards the ears or away from them?

Thank you for answering this most basic of questions.

 

[Dr G]

Neither. I really like Jerry Bergonzi’s approach. He refers to it as a “no-embouchure” embouchure.

You say you are returning to sax. What were you doing before that you feel you need to change?

 

[wakyct]

I'm with Dr. G on this one. The best description I've heard of embouchure is put your thumb, nail side down, in your mouth like it's the MP and seal around it with your lips. Does it feel like you're squeezing your thumb? That's too much pressure.

 

[skeller047]

My opinion is neither push your lower lip out, nor roll it in. Straight up, supported by your lower teeth, but don’t use your teeth (i.e. jaw) to ‘help’ support the lip on the reed.

Corners, the same way, neither out nor in, just sealing where they are.

What DOES move in or out is the mouthpiece while you are searching for the right position for the sound to sing.

Frankly, most people worry too much about embouchure. Good breath support will solve a lot of problems that folks think are embouchure related.

 

[wooster]

Thank you folks. The reason I am concerned about my embouchure is because one of the problems I had was jaw pain. As I mentioned I have a lot of joint issues and so I need to be careful. I feel my embouchure was too tense and this contributed to my issue. Hence my concern. I found Jerry Bergonzi online and will give his method a go. I also found a video saying to pretend your sucking your thumb then use these lip positions. It seems everyone has their own way of doing it and so I guess I should just make sure I don't go nuts with the tension and broadly follow the general advice .

 

[Pete Effamy]

Sounds like you must be biting / using jaw pressure. Essentially, just relax completely and let your jaw hang, mouth open. With relaxed lips (possibly hold lower lip a tiny bit so as "upright"), place mouthpiece / reed onto lip and close around it. Jaw probably could do with being slightly pushed forward from relaxed position - note that relaxed isn't all the way back, and when I say slightly forward, I don't mean all the way forward. Perhaps general playing position is about halfway of the total movement.

Some people do play with a "smile" embouchure (corners of lips to ears as you say) which will stretch your lip out - maybe this is more of a classical thing; others use a "pout" (as it describes); others push corners of mouth in around the mouthpiece like a draw-string purse. Again, maybe this is classical too. I agree with S Keller as above as it's relaxed and neutral.

 

[ghostler]

I do the "pout", goes with my personality. 😉

 

[MikeMorrell]

I am returning to sax after a break following a bit of a jaw problem. I want to make sure my embouchure is right from the start and doesn’t cause me any future problems: that’s the idea anyway!

I’m puzzled about one particular aspect of embouchure formation. Up until now I’ve:

1. rested my top teeth on the mouthpiece lightly
2. Kept my jaw loose
3. Gently pushed my bottom lip out and rested it lightly against the moouthpiece
4. Then pushed the sides of my mouth to seal the gaps between mouth and 'piece

The bit I’m confused about is this; whep0 n I draw the sides of my mouth to the 'piece in step 4 above, should I be pulling the corners of my lips towards my ears ... or ... should I be pushing them away from my ears like I was blowing out a candle or blowing a kiss?

So far I've been giong for the kissing thing but I saw a video today where the guy seemed to suggest the corners of the mouth towards the ears. Now, I’m not talking about sneering in a sort of mad joker type thing but should the slight movement be towards the ears or away from them?

Thank you for answering this most basic of questions.

Hi @wooster, I'm just a (long-term) amateur tenor sax player. So I'm probably the worst person to answer your question!

To me, your steps 1-4 sound perfect! My only answer in just to experiment and work out what 'embouchure' works best for you now. There are people who advocate a 'lips in' embouchure and that advocate a 'lips out' embouchure. Many jazz players advocate a 'rolling lip' embouchure.

But an 'embouchure' is not only about the lips but about the face muscles. Some people advocate that these should be 'set'. Others advocate that these should be 'relaxed'.

,FWIW, I learned (back in the day) a lot from the 'Harvey Pittel' series of YouTube videos, This is his video on embouchure'. Hope it helps.

View: https://youtu.be/VvvilCbPjfQ?si=JP_-LBm9RVCrvaYD

 

[lydian]

Here are many examples of what good jazz sax embouchures look like. As as kid I got this from looking at album covers and experimenting until I got the sound I wanted. My first sax teacher was no help in this regard as a classical clarinetist. I had a great classical sax embouchure but a terrible jazz sax embouchure until I tried to copy what I saw in pictures.

The Best Saxophone Embouchure: Where’s That Bottom Lip?

The Best Saxophone Embouchure: Where's That Bottom Lip?

www.neffmusic.com

I disagree about the jaw being completely relaxed. That simply doesn't work. You'll have no tone control. You need at least enough jaw pressure to make a seal and support your face muscles.

 

[mizmar]

Just to add, seems to me...

Sure there are lots of useful hints, but don't forget the objective is to deliver a note - and that takes full coordination from the stomach to the tone hole; driven by the intent of the player. Like hitting tennis ball or delivering an upper cut punch or such. The bits have to work; but once they all get connected it becomes single action without consideration of the details.

 

[Dr G]

Just to add, seems to me...

Sure there are lots of useful hints, but don't forget the objective is to deliver a note - and that takes full coordination from the stomach to the tone hole; driven by the intent of the player. Like hitting tennis ball or delivering an upper cut punch or such. The bits have to work; but once they all get connected it becomes single action without consideration of the details.

OK... What is your point?

 

[mizmar]

OK... What is your point?

That once you get the joined-up thing going, the bits adjust to work together.

 

[Dr G]

That once you get the joined-up thing going, the bits adjust to work together.

OK, fine. One must still get each of their bits sorted before they can expect them to work as a whole. If you've got a crappy embouchure, a good sense of rhythm is not going to make everything sound great.

 

[Pete Thomas]

OK, fine. One must still get each of their bits sorted before they can expect them to work as a whole.

That’s an ideal. I’m not sure I have yet achieved it.

 

[mizmar]

OK, fine. One must still get each of their bits sorted before they can expect them to work as a whole. If you've got a crappy embouchure, a good sense of rhythm is not going to make everything sound great.

True ... What's your point?

 

[Dr G]

True ... What's your point?

That is still worthwhile to focus attention to develop your embouchure.

 

[mizmar]

That is still worthwhile to focus attention to develop your embouchure.

No one said otherwise.
I was adding other thoughts.
HTH

 

[skeller047]

Who has?

 

[MikeMorrell]

Here are many examples of what good jazz sax embouchures look like. As as kid I got this from looking at album covers and experimenting until I got the sound I wanted. My first sax teacher was no help in this regard as a classical clarinetist. I had a great classical sax embouchure but a terrible jazz sax embouchure until I tried to copy what I saw in pictures.

The Best Saxophone Embouchure: Where’s That Bottom Lip?

The Best Saxophone Embouchure: Where's That Bottom Lip?

www.neffmusic.com

I disagree about the jaw being completely relaxed. That simply doesn't work. You'll have no tone control. You need at least enough jaw pressure to make a seal and support your face muscles.

Many thanks for you post @lydian! It's a truly wonderful resource!

FWIW., I'm not a supporter (or 'fan') of any one style of 'embouchure'. I have no absolutely experience or skill for this. My basic belief is that:
- (especially) beginning sax players should learn about - and experiment with - different styles of embouchure
- they - with hopefully the help of a tutor - find an embouchure style that works best for them
- that they continue to develop their embouchure

I'm sure that your resource-rich post will help many sax players. So again, thanks!

Mike

FWIW, back in the day, I was taught (classically to fold my bottom lip over my bottom teeth. Via the café I came across a video that showed that many jazz sax players folded their bottom lip outwards. For me at the time a complete revolution! Then I discovered (probably via the Harvey Pittel clip) that it was possible to 'roll your bottom lip'

I'm now 70 and TBH, I'm pretty much done with experimenting with 'embouchure' except for my 2 mpc's.

 

[ghostler]

FWIW, back in the day, I was taught (classically to fold my bottom lip over my bottom teeth. Via the café I came across a video that showed that many jazz sax players folded their bottom lip outwards.

I think it means one uses a little less lower lip under the reed. To be honest with you, been playing for so long now, I just never gave it any thought.

To me it is a non-issue.