Beginner (playing) Specific Aspect of Embouchure ( sorry )

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wooster

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I am returning to sax after a break following a bit of a jaw problem. I want to make sure my embouchure is right from the start and doesn’t cause me any future problems: that’s the idea anyway!

I’m puzzled about one particular aspect of embouchure formation. Up until now I’ve:
  1. rested my top teeth on the mouthpiece lightly
  2. Kept my jaw loose
  3. Gently pushed my bottom lip out and rested it lightly against the moouthpiece
  4. Then pushed the sides of my mouth to seal the gaps between mouth and 'piece
The bit I’m confused about is this; when I draw the sides of my mouth to the 'piece in step 4 above, should I be pulling the corners of my lips towards my ears ... or ... should I be pushing them away from my ears like I was blowing out a candle or blowing a kiss?

So far I've been giong for the kissing thing but I saw a video today where the guy seemed to suggest the corners of the mouth towards the ears. Now, I’m not talking about sneering in a sort of mad joker type thing but should the slight movement be towards the ears or away from them?

Thank you for answering this most basic of questions.
 
Neither. I really like Jerry Bergonzi’s approach. He refers to it as a “no-embouchure” embouchure.

You say you are returning to sax. What were you doing before that you feel you need to change?
 
I'm with Dr. G on this one. The best description I've heard of embouchure is put your thumb, nail side down, in your mouth like it's the MP and seal around it with your lips. Does it feel like you're squeezing your thumb? That's too much pressure.
 
My opinion is neither push your lower lip out, nor roll it in. Straight up, supported by your lower teeth, but don’t use your teeth (i.e. jaw) to ‘help’ support the lip on the reed.

Corners, the same way, neither out nor in, just sealing where they are.

What DOES move in or out is the mouthpiece while you are searching for the right position for the sound to sing.

Frankly, most people worry too much about embouchure. Good breath support will solve a lot of problems that folks think are embouchure related.
 
Thank you folks. The reason I am concerned about my embouchure is because one of the problems I had was jaw pain. As I mentioned I have a lot of joint issues and so I need to be careful. I feel my embouchure was too tense and this contributed to my issue. Hence my concern. I found Jerry Bergonzi online and will give his method a go. I also found a video saying to pretend your sucking your thumb then use these lip positions. It seems everyone has their own way of doing it and so I guess I should just make sure I don't go nuts with the tension and broadly follow the general advice .
 
Sounds like you must be biting / using jaw pressure. Essentially, just relax completely and let your jaw hang, mouth open. With relaxed lips (possibly hold lower lip a tiny bit so as "upright"), place mouthpiece / reed onto lip and close around it. Jaw probably could do with being slightly pushed forward from relaxed position - note that relaxed isn't all the way back, and when I say slightly forward, I don't mean all the way forward. Perhaps general playing position is about halfway of the total movement.

Some people do play with a "smile" embouchure (corners of lips to ears as you say) which will stretch your lip out - maybe this is more of a classical thing; others use a "pout" (as it describes); others push corners of mouth in around the mouthpiece like a draw-string purse. Again, maybe this is classical too. I agree with S Keller as above as it's relaxed and neutral.
 
wooster said:
I am returning to sax after a break following a bit of a jaw problem. I want to make sure my embouchure is right from the start and doesn’t cause me any future problems: that’s the idea anyway!

I’m puzzled about one particular aspect of embouchure formation. Up until now I’ve:
  1. rested my top teeth on the mouthpiece lightly
  2. Kept my jaw loose
  3. Gently pushed my bottom lip out and rested it lightly against the moouthpiece
  4. Then pushed the sides of my mouth to seal the gaps between mouth and 'piece
The bit I’m confused about is this; whep0 n I draw the sides of my mouth to the 'piece in step 4 above, should I be pulling the corners of my lips towards my ears ... or ... should I be pushing them away from my ears like I was blowing out a candle or blowing a kiss?

So far I've been giong for the kissing thing but I saw a video today where the guy seemed to suggest the corners of the mouth towards the ears. Now, I’m not talking about sneering in a sort of mad joker type thing but should the slight movement be towards the ears or away from them?

Thank you for answering this most basic of questions.
Click to expand...
Hi @wooster, I'm just a (long-term) amateur tenor sax player. So I'm probably the worst person to answer your question!

To me, your steps 1-4 sound perfect! My only answer in just to experiment and work out what 'embouchure' works best for you now. There are people who advocate a 'lips in' embouchure and that advocate a 'lips out' embouchure. Many jazz players advocate a 'rolling lip' embouchure.

But an 'embouchure' is not only about the lips but about the face muscles. Some people advocate that these should be 'set'. Others advocate that these should be 'relaxed'.

,FWIW, I learned (back in the day) a lot from the 'Harvey Pittel' series of YouTube videos, This is his video on embouchure'. Hope it helps.

View: https://youtu.be/VvvilCbPjfQ?si=JP_-LBm9RVCrvaYD
 
Here are many examples of what good jazz sax embouchures look like. As as kid I got this from looking at album covers and experimenting until I got the sound I wanted. My first sax teacher was no help in this regard as a classical clarinetist. I had a great classical sax embouchure but a terrible jazz sax embouchure until I tried to copy what I saw in pictures.
www.neffmusic.com

The Best Saxophone Embouchure: Where’s That Bottom Lip?

The Best Saxophone Embouchure: Where's That Bottom Lip?
www.neffmusic.com www.neffmusic.com

I disagree about the jaw being completely relaxed. That simply doesn't work. You'll have no tone control. You need at least enough jaw pressure to make a seal and support your face muscles.
 
Just to add, seems to me...

Sure there are lots of useful hints, but don't forget the objective is to deliver a note - and that takes full coordination from the stomach to the tone hole; driven by the intent of the player. Like hitting tennis ball or delivering an upper cut punch or such. The bits have to work; but once they all get connected it becomes single action without consideration of the details.
 
mizmar said:
Just to add, seems to me...

Sure there are lots of useful hints, but don't forget the objective is to deliver a note - and that takes full coordination from the stomach to the tone hole; driven by the intent of the player. Like hitting tennis ball or delivering an upper cut punch or such. The bits have to work; but once they all get connected it becomes single action without consideration of the details.
Click to expand...
OK... What is your point?
 
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