Playing the saxophone Sax pain

[Deano]

In a word -Yes.

A lot of different options with regards to weight distribution centre of gravity etc. The Saxholder in particular is very deliberately designed to do so, but so are others. Obviously correct adjustment is of critical importance and can take a bit of trial and error - make very small changes one at a time.

Also have you tried playing sitting down? On alto you may be able rest the sax on the chair in between your legs or on your lap depending on how tall you are.

I'm a bit passionate about ergonomics:

My mum used to be a pottery teacher 40 odd years ago and had her own pottery wheel, which was totally wrong for her and she developed frozen shoulder on one side and tennis elbow on the other and had to give up. She did return to pottery as a hobby some 20 odd years later on a more modern wheel and had none of these problems.

I work in IT for a hospital, and often work with our occupational health department to provide computer equipment solutions for staff with upper limb disorders. I cannot stress enough that I am no expert on physiology, I am acutely aware that a specialist piece of kit is supplied that works for one person may not suit another and could actually cause more harm than good. So I always seek a professional assessment.

I do not have a problem with the weight of it round my neck, I am pretty sure that I have the strap set right.
I think it most likely is to do with my grip causing the problem.

Do you mean a sax teacher for a professional assessment or physio

 

[greenstripe]

I do not have a problem with the weight of it round my neck, I am pretty sure that I have the strap set right.
I think it most likely is to do with my grip causing the problem.

Do you mean a sax teacher for a professional assessment or physio

I meant physio - but a sax teacher may help too - you certainly shouldn't be needing to grip the saxophone with any degree of pressure

 

[skeller047]

The fact that you are using terms like “grip”, and that you got elbow and tendon pain from playing, leads me to believe you are using way too much muscle, and likely holding the saxophone wrong.

Only use enough finger pressure to close the keys. Wrists should be straight, shoulders relaxed. Your hands should be shaped like you are holding an orange. Elbows gently by your sides. You should be completely relaxed when playing, especially your shoulders, arms and hands —how can you expect to play well if there is any tension in your upper body?

If any of those are not true, then try to correct it; if you can’t then find a good saxophone coach. Unless you have a medical condition that makes this stuff worse, you shouldn’t need medical attention or physical therapy, and a few weeks should be enough to recover. I know your teacher had 30 years experience, but experience at what? Playing saxophone should not cause the kind of pain you are describing; you are doing something incorrectly, and injuring youself.

 

[mizmar]

No it is a good one. It is just me squeezing to tight need to relax I am aware and trying to sort it.

Given that medical problems should be looked at by doctors and not the internet.

Don't underestimate the unconscious impact of leaks or small misadjustments. A good service is your friend for a sax that's a few years old. And - excuse me for saying this - but don't 100% trust the opinion of an experienced player as to the condition of the horn; a good player can blow right past small leaks while a beginner will just grip tighter.

 

[Deano]

Hi Skeller it makes sense what you are saying I know what you mean, I need to be more aware of what I am doing.

It may well be that I have got an old injury that makes playing painful for me ? I
I have stopped playing for about 10 months waiting for my injury to get better they say it can take in can take even longer.

I do really want to try and get playing again

My teacher very good and is more than well qualified or I would not even go there, this is a little bit about him.

Ian has over 30 years of experience as teacher and professional performer. He has been busy combining instrumental teaching, professional performing and as a senior leader and teacher in schools, Further Education and Higher Education. He was Head of a National Skills Academy for the Creative and Cultural Sector.
Ian currently has students working towards ABRSM and Trinity exams in classical and jazz and they can be entered through the digital online format as this is so much easier for busy adults.
He is an expert on woodwind music and published his work for the Clarinet and Saxophone Society Magazine, in the USA and Japan.

 

[Deano]

Hi Mizmar I have been to the Drs and referred me treatment with physio therapy.

My sax was given a service by a very well qualified repair specialist recommended to me By Courtney Pine David Fingerhut. I just looked him up but it now looks like he may well have retired.

 

[Ivan]

I've had golfer's elbow, exacerbated by, but not necessarily caused by, playing sax... Came out of the blue. It has mainly gone away, but sometimes looms

I didn't bother with any particular treatment, but physio is probably the best thing

 

[skeller047]

Hi Deano, sounds like you have a good teacher then. Maybe a great one 🙂 I may have come off too harsh, and if so I apologize. If an MD says 10 months to heal, then follow that advice, but that seems a long time to me. When I was in my early 30’s (back in the early Juraissic), I had abdominal surgery which of course stopped me from playing. It was 2 months before I could play again, and it was a little tender even then. The abdominal muscles are used so strongly when playing that I really needed to completely heal; I tried flute at 6 weeks, but within a minute I knew I needed to wait longer.

So do what your body tells you, but also really pay attention to your posture and try to relax. And let us know how you get on.

 

[Deano]

Hi Skeller he is a bit good. 😉🙂

Personal Description:​

I am a highly experienced and successful teacher of clarinet and saxophone based in Harrow now looking to expand. I have personally developed my teaching skills and expertise with people in previous roles as a Director of Curriculum and Head of Creative Skills Academy. I am looking for young beginners to adults, whether aiming for exam success or purely for pleasure. I studied clarinet with Mark Jordan (Royal Northern College), Colin Lawson (Royal Academy) and Colin Bradbury (London Symphony Orchestra). I had much early success as a young performer reaching the final of the Festival of Music for Youth in a duet and performed Mozart's Clarinet Concerto with the County Youth Orchestra. I then progressed to much professional work including the International Festival Orchestra for the G&S Society. I was also a features writer for the Clarinet and Saxophone Society of the UK specifically on advanced technique. I now aim to focus exclusively on teaching clarinet and saxophone.

Tutoring Experience:​

I have over 30 years experience as a music teacher, instrumental teacher and with experience as a senior leader in education involved in Teaching, Learning and Assessment at the highest level. My students have successfully achieved exam board grades from 3 to 8 and I have also taught undergraduate students at University. In addition to clarinet and saxophone I have taught GCSE and A Level Music and have even written a Music Degree when in charge of Higher Education

No problem Skeller all good.

I am aware that I need to do it and I will keep a close eye on it, you have given me a couple of good pointers thanks

I will keep you all in the loop.

 

[Pete Thomas]

My sax was given a service by a very well qualified repair specialist recommended to me By Courtney Pine David Fingerhut. I just looked him up but it now looks like he may well have retired.

How long ago was it serviced? If there are issues with you gripping too hard (as does seem to be a possibility) then perhaps the gripping itself could cause some issues with the instruments regulation and so there is a vicious cycle because it goes to of whack and causes even more gripping.

Does having a harness make much difference o the way you hold the sax ?

It shouldn't kake any difference.

What does your teacher say about the pain? Caused by playing the saxophone or not?

 

[mizmar]

Just to say; thanks for this thread!

I started practice today and noticed - thinking about this - something wobbly with F. A quick look with the old leak-light, a 1/4 turn and both F, G#+F are solid again... And such like.

These bloody things can drift out so easily and one can compensate... But a quick check is invaluable.
Mind you, my sax hasn't been serviced by someone recommend by a world class player... Nor is it a lovely 61 - Quite the opposite on both counts!

 

[turf3]

Unless you specifically ask your instructor about this issue, you can't assume he will magically look at you and determine whether he and you need to pay attention to playing position.

I'm still going to bet 99+% that it's about playing position, and 90+% that the horn's too low and you're trying to force it into position.

Rather than just blanket resisting the suggestion, why don't you hike up on the strap an inch or two and practice that way for a week? And mark the strap so you know where your position is (assuming you're using one with a slider).

 

[turf3]

Also beware the "elbows out" posture affected by so many classical players. Your goal should be to look as close as possible to the relaxed professional demeanor of Johnny Hodges as below:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wINfnnUlrwY

 

[turf3]

Or, for a tenor model, observe the relaxed and professional demeanor of Dexter Gordon:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtmKAy9P1kY

 

[Colin the Bear]

Or for the Lester Young relaxed position, play lying down in bed. 😉

 

[Deano]

How long ago was it serviced? If there are issues with you gripping too hard (as does seem to be a possibility) then perhaps the gripping itself could cause some issues with the instruments regulation and so there is a vicious cycle because it goes to of whack and causes even more gripping.


It shouldn't kake any difference.

What does your teacher say about the pain? Caused by playing the saxophone or not?

A while ago but not had a lot of use only on and off, but my teacher had a go on it and said he liked it and all was good.

Ok.

I spoke to him this morning as he has been away and he said he never noticed anything I was doing when I was at his was wrong. And suggested that I try to play sitting down with the weight of the sax on the chair and keep my finger straight as possible.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I used to say to students that playing a saxophone should be as close as possible to standing upright and relaxed with good posture without a sax. Essentially bend the elbows and raise forearms keeping everything relaxed. Add a saxophone.

Weight is supported via a sling from the neck, or something around the shoulders. Not the thumbs. They can play a large part though - the lower thumb can push away from the body in a horizontal plane. The left (upper) thumb does similar. They act as stabilisers and work with the sling or harness hook providing a 3-point holder/stabiliser.

Can a wind instrument be played in a completely relaxed way? I'm thinking neck. Blowing to any sort of volume I've certainly never achieved this, though the rest of me is fairly relaxed - shoulders down etc. Of course, some people are just bigger too, with big shoulders and necks - so Paul Desmond for example is going to have a tougher time physiologically playing a tenor sax than Clarence Clemons or Andy Snitzer. It does weigh 3.6kg...

Some people play with the horn further away from the body - meaning that the sling is more slack and the lower thumb is pushing away from the body more. Difference? The angle of mouthpiece into the mouth, and consequently the airflow into the mouthpiece. More angle of mouthpiece will possibly also mean more pressure on reed due to "crowbar" effect if lower jaw is kept "in place". This also depends upon the angle of the head too - towards downwards will mean less pressure.

Compare Paul Desmond to Eric Marienthal. Not sure that there is much difference between the two, unless perhaps you go from one extreme to the other extreme, and even then...

Edit: I have long had problems with my neck after playing. I did have two "minor" whiplash injuries in my 20's. They have certainly had a marked effect - though not so much when I was a "gym guy" and also not so much when constantly playing.

 

[Deano]

Hi Turf I will take on board what you said about the height of my sax and give it a go when my arm does not feel so tender. I have had a look at the videos thank you for going to the rouble to show me.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Hi Skeller he is a bit good. 😉🙂

Personal Description:​

I am a highly experienced and successful teacher of clarinet and saxophone based in Harrow now looking to expand. I have personally developed my teaching skills and expertise with people in previous roles as a Director of Curriculum and Head of Creative Skills Academy. I am looking for young beginners to adults, whether aiming for exam success or purely for pleasure. I studied clarinet with Mark Jordan (Royal Northern College), Colin Lawson (Royal Academy) and Colin Bradbury (London Symphony Orchestra). I had much early success as a young performer reaching the final of the Festival of Music for Youth in a duet and performed Mozart's Clarinet Concerto with the County Youth Orchestra. I then progressed to much professional work including the International Festival Orchestra for the G&S Society. I was also a features writer for the Clarinet and Saxophone Society of the UK specifically on advanced technique. I now aim to focus exclusively on teaching clarinet and saxophone.

Tutoring Experience:​

I have over 30 years experience as a music teacher, instrumental teacher and with experience as a senior leader in education involved in Teaching, Learning and Assessment at the highest level. My students have successfully achieved exam board grades from 3 to 8 and I have also taught undergraduate students at University. In addition to clarinet and saxophone I have taught GCSE and A Level Music and have even written a Music Degree when in charge of Higher Education

No problem Skeller all good.

I am aware that I need to do it and I will keep a close eye on it, you have given me a couple of good pointers thanks

I will keep you all in the loop.

Hi Deano,

I also got to a high level on classical clarinet. I stopped "being a clarinet player" in my early 20's but 35 years later I can still put some aspects of my sax playing to shame on clarinet, despite not really playing the thing from one year to the next. Some things are just ingrained.

My point is, for some of us, the two instruments are really quite different and much doesn't translate well.

(Let's ignore the fact that Brecker started on clarinet. He was a freak).

 

[Pete Effamy]

I have done a bit of physio I think I need to do it again.

Does having a harness make much difference o the way you hold the sax ?

Hold no, but...

In my experience the sax sits differently when supported from a hook coming from the neck (sling) and when coming from near waist position (harness).