Saxophones Phosphor Bronze Made alto

[JayeNM]

Maybe @jbtsax can chime in on this one...or maybe he has seen the thread and headed for the hills already 😳....but he has in the past referenced a few studies which, while not exactly what I was proposing above, addresses some aspects of finish and material.

Resonance of the body ...to my recollection...is not a 'thing' when we discuss saxophones...IOW it's negligible in regards to tonality....although again most marketing would mislead you to believe otherwise.

I recall an 'almost-wonderful' little contemporary vid on YT about Rampone-Cazzani and their little factory...including some interviews witha representative and some tour shots of the factory.
It was a great vid until the last few minutes...when they started talking about their experiments with body alloys.
The rep literally picked up various soprano bodies, raw metal no finishes, which had yet to be outfitted with keys, etc....and in order to 'demonstrate' the sonority differences of different alloys, he hit them with a stick...producing various 'rings' and 'pings'...some more pretty to the ears than others.
Somehow, following his narrative, this was supposed to illustrate something.

It did.

It illustrated that when you hit various sax bodies of different alloys with a stick, they are prolly gonna ring differently.

But to my knowledge, currently there are no sax models out there which are played by hitting them with a stick...

(although I can think of several brands and models which SHOULD be hit with a stick....a rather large stick....repeatedly.....)

 

[jbtsax]

Maybe @jbtsax can chime in on this one...or maybe he has seen the thread and headed for the hills already 😳....but he has in the past referenced a few studies which, while not exactly what I was proposing above, addresses some aspects of finish and material.

As many of you know I have had an interest in woodwind acoustics as a hobby for several years. Two studies I am familiar with that apply directly to the materials instruments are made of and whether wall vibrations affect the sound waves in the column of air inside the instrument are these. Linortner Flute Study

 

[Wade Cornell]

With all due respect it seems that bronze wasn't part of the test and most of the combinations or single element flutes are extremely close in terms of their (atomic) weight and physical characteristics as having a hard surface and not a being particularly absorbent materials. Any idiot can hear that a bamboo flute doesn't sound at all like a metal flute. The test performed shows that among those similar materials there is little difference, I'd expect this. Throw in a bamboo flute and you'd have a case for materials do matter. Does bronze make a difference? I guess we won't know until someone performs a similar test using it.

Good science doesn't project beyond its scope to assume anything, and to give jbtsax credit he hasn't either, but in presenting this information it doesn't enlighten us as to whether bronze makes a difference.

Is there anybody here who thinks a bamboo flute sounds the same as a silver? Materials definitely can make a difference if the materials are different enough. Is bronze different enough? Seems none of us knows.

The second study (if I'm reading it correctly) is looking at the resonance of the tube material, which is interesting if you're expecting the outside of the tube to be creating sound or think that any resonance created in the tube material is re-projected with enough volume to be detectable (compared to the tone being promulgated by a vibration source at the end of the tube). Unfortunately this study again doesn't look at various materials and the dampening affect that a more absorptive material can have on the sound spectrum.

I'm a scientist, so have respect for trials like these, but they aren't relevant to the specific question of whether bronze horns have a different sound. That takes testing a bronze horn against others. As JayeNM and others suggest that would be tough to do since different horns are made differently so sound differently anyway. The real question IMHO is not about "resonance" of the material (like the example of hitting it to hear what the material's pitch is), it's about reflection and absorption of the sound we make in the tube. Line the walls of a room with tile and you know what that's gong to sound like. Line it with wood and it's completely different. The tile and the wood don't make the sound, but they reflect and absorb various parts of the spectrum of the sound made in that room. Would a room lined with steel sound different to a room lined with aluminum? Quite likely even though they are both metals. Is this starting to make sense?

 

[Colin the Bear]

I have a wood, metal and plastic clarinet. They all sound the same.

Does the bamboo flute have a bamboo head? Well...It will sound different to a metal flute with a metal head. Won't it.

It does make me wonder about adding a solid silver bell to a saxophone when only part of the sound goes through the bell.

A bamboo saxophone. Now there's a challenge. Oh! Wait! What's the reed made of? 😉

 

[Wade Cornell]

I have a wood, metal and plastic clarinet. They all sound the same.

Does the bamboo flute have a bamboo head? Well...It will sound different to a metal flute with a metal head. Won't it.

It does make me wonder about adding a solid silver bell to a saxophone when only part of the sound goes through the bell.

A bamboo saxophone. Now there's a challenge. Oh! Wait! What's the reed made of? 😉

Hey Colin good to hear from you and your three clarinets. The wood for clarinets is very hard, not at all like bamboo. Not sure why you don't hear a difference in the metal one. I have a metal clarinet and wood one which to my ears sound quite different, but maybe that's just me or other differences in the way they are made that could be attributed to the way they sound?

Bamboo flues, whether side blown, or the end blown shakuhachi type, are generally solid bamboo. They sound like this:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFraWaDL2OU

Obviously nothing like a metal flute.

 

[Dr G]

Hey Colin good to hear from you and your three clarinets. The wood for clarinets is very hard, not at all like bamboo. Not sure why you don't hear a difference in the metal one. I have a metal clarinet and wood one which to my ears sound quite different, but maybe that's just me or other differences in the way they are made that could be attributed to the way they sound?

Bamboo flues, whether side blown, or the end blown shakuhachi type, are generally solid bamboo. They sound like this:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFraWaDL2OU

Obviously nothing like a metal flute.

Obviously made nothing like a metal flute. This seems just another apples and ducks comparison.

 

[Wade Cornell]

Obviously made nothing like a metal flute. This seems just another apples and ducks comparison.

I have also made (as stated in a much earlier post) flutes from wax. They were similar thickness length and hole size to the bamboo with the same tuning (length and ID the same with holes cut at the same junctures giving the same tuning). The only difference was the material. They were indeed extremely different in sound quality.

I would have thought that the example of sounds made in a tile room as compared to a wood room would have had some "resonance". Very sorry that you didn't grasp this. We are making sounds (reed vibrating) into a chamber. It should be obvious like the tile vs wood room that a listener outside the door will hear a difference in that sound. Do you not get this?

 

[JayeNM]

With all due respect it seems that bronze wasn't part of the test and most of the combinations or single element flutes are extremely close in terms of their (atomic) weight and physical characteristics as having a hard surface and not a being particularly absorbent materials. Any idiot can hear that a bamboo flute doesn't sound at all like a metal flute.

True, but I see what @Dr G is saying here....IOW....are the specs of a bamboo flute identical to that of a metal one ?

If they are not - if the material of the flute is not the sole difference....

...then it gets back to variables....if there's more than a single variable, then how can one state with certainty that it was only ONE of the variables which is responsible for the difference ?

(tip of my hat to good ol' Mrs. Meltz from 9th grade science class, there...)

Interestingly, you (Wade) feel the difference has nothing to do with resonance but rather the reflective/absorptive properties of 'bronze' vs. brass (not bell bronze, but rather likely brass with the addition of more %age of a particular metal 'ingredient' to make it look bronzy).

That's an interesting take/assertion (seriously, it is). It's a better argument than the 'bronze (or silver or unlacquered) produces more resonance' line.

So one supporting this would speculate indeed there's a significant (IOW it could be perceived) difference in the reflective/absorptive performance of the 'bronze' vs. brass body....

One who was skeptical would say that there isn't a significant enough difference in that to actually produce a different tonality to the ears.

It could be proven, one way or the other, however, we both agree.

(You see, my thing here...

...a company puts a lot of marketing into pushing their particular model, made of so-and-so alloy. They are gonna sell it for a nice hefty price....they might convince folks it sounds 'better' by relying on the Placebo Effect...

or....

If they were sly-er....they might go to one of their designers/engineers and say "OK, so look....we are marketing this model in bronze as being warmer and darker and richer toned than the same model in brass lacq.
What can you do to tweak the tone of this model and apply that tweak to the bronze ones ?"
And the designer might come up with (as one example, there might be many):

"sure, we can change the neck taper slightly".....

So they do that, make those necks only in bronze, for the bronze bodies...

...a tweak in neck taper, if the octave key and saddle and neck brace and tenon collar shape are all the same...is not gonna be noticed by 99% of owners or testers...it's a subtle thing, visually.

...and people do side by sides and conclude, correctly, that the bronze horns sound warmer and richer and therefore...the body metal is causing this .....)

 

[jbtsax]

It is well understood in acoustic science that the interior geometry of woodwind instruments has a great effect upon how they sound and explains the differences in tonal qualities between different makes and models. In the pages below printed from Benade's class notes for a course he taught at Case Western University, he explains the differences in the interior bores of woodwinds and how energy is lost.

Note on the second page he writes: "The thermal part of the dissipation varies only slightly with wall material."

The basic question in my understanding is that IF a saxophone made of traditional brass and a saxophone made of bronze have the same interior geometry, smoothness of bore, etc. by what vehicle would the sound of one be different than the other? Even if the wall vibrations of each may be slightly different than the other, science has not found that the wall vibrations of a woodwind "couple" with the soundwaves inside. The difference, if any, in "thermal dissipation" would be quite small according to Benade. For any hard smooth material the reflection of soundwaves such as takes place inside an instrument is nearly identical as shown by Pauline Eveno's study of resonators.

 

[Colin the Bear]

What happens acoustically in a large chamber, like a room, doesn't seem a good comparison to what happens in a small tube. Whatever the decor.
Since we're comparing apples and ducks, maybe we could use the quack, which has no echo, to compare the juice.

 

[Dr G]

I have also made (as stated in a much earlier post) flutes from wax. They were similar thickness length and hole size to the bamboo with the same tuning (length and ID the same with holes cut at the same junctures giving the same tuning). The only difference was the material. They were indeed extremely different in sound quality.

I would have thought that the example of sounds made in a tile room as compared to a wood room would have had some "resonance". Very sorry that you didn't grasp this. We are making sounds (reed vibrating) into a chamber. It should be obvious like the tile vs wood room that a listener outside the door will hear a difference in that sound. Do you not get this?

I do so get this very simplistic comparison. Given the crude holes in the bore, it does not hold water.

 

[Wade Cornell]

Great to have discussions and disagreements, however I'm going to take the higher ground of NOT having poo pooed anything and left the question open to a more scientific examination. JayeNM may have the best answer in that there could have been accommodation in the design to "assist" the perception. Bronze is certainly a hard enough surface, to fit in with the other materials, but all of this is still speculation. To Dr G, well I'm surprised that you would make a judgement without ever having seen or heard one of my wax or bamboo flutes. The holes were precise so that the instrument played perfectly in tune. The thickness was always a consideration as was the interior bore. A rather trollish attitude I wouldn't have expected from an intelligent person.

 

[nigeld]

My opinion about this has several aspects:

1. Any acoustical theory, like any scientific theory, is based on a simplified model of the system - it does not, and cannot, model the exact movement of every atomic particle in the airflow and the instrument. Therefore there may be factors which make a difference but which are not adequately reflected in the model. In other words, even though the theory of acoustics says that the material of the instrument body makes no difference, this isn't necessarily correct.

2. It might be the case that some manufacturers, such as Yanagisawa, assign their most experienced workers to building their most expensive instruments. If so, it could easily be true that Yanagisawa bronze and silver instruments sound marginally better than their brass ones because they are better made. (I own a bronze Yani baritone, so that's my theory, and I'm sticking to it!!) But this would presumably not apply to cheap Chinese instruments.

3. Our perceptions are affected by our state of mind. If I know that an instrument is made of baked cow dung then I may genuinely believe that it sounds a bit muddy.

4. Different people hear differently, so it is very likely that one person can hear a difference whereas another person can't.

Personally, I believe that the material an instrument is made of does make a difference. I have no scientific justification for that belief, which makes it quite unlikely that I will be swayed by other people's arguments. 😉

 

[mizmar]

...cannot, model the exact movement of every atomic particle in the airflow...

Can you hear each, individual, atomic particle?

 

[LostCircuits]

Or if it's on Saturn

You don't have to go that far, Panama or Ecuador vs. Hammerfest or Puerto Williams will make a difference 😎

 

[mizmar]

You don't have to go that far, Panama or Ecuador vs. Hammerfest or Puerto Williams will make a difference 😎

All these suggestions are easier than changing the lattice spacing by, I suppose, messing with the electromagnetic coupling constant...

 

[Colin the Bear]

All these suggestions are easier than changing the lattice spacing by, I suppose, messing with the electromagnetic coupling constant...

Spock?...maybe Data...possibly seven of nine. Oh no...wait...Dr Who innit?

 

[LostCircuits]

All these suggestions are easier than changing the lattice spacing by, I suppose, messing with the electromagnetic coupling constant...

And depending on the season, you get a free cryo-treatment before the locals serve you a cooked sheep head as a token of appreciation!

 

[Dr G]

Great to have discussions and disagreements, however I'm going to take the higher ground of NOT having poo pooed anything and left the question open to a more scientific examination. JayeNM may have the best answer in that there could have been accommodation in the design to "assist" the perception. Bronze is certainly a hard enough surface, to fit in with the other materials, but all of this is still speculation. To Dr G, well I'm surprised that you would make a judgement without ever having seen or heard one of my wax or bamboo flutes. The holes were precise so that the instrument played perfectly in tune. The thickness was always a consideration as was the interior bore. A rather trollish attitude I wouldn't have expected from an intelligent person.

Did you use the same geometry as a a metal flute - bore and tone hole diameter?

Just the differences in finish of the edge of the hole and plate will change the tone and response of a head joint. Unless you can hold the same tolerances of a metal flute, you cannot test the effect of materials.

The fact that your flutes play in tune does not prove that you have controlled for geometrical features of a conventional flute.

What is it that you are trying to prove/disprove?

 

[Wade Cornell]

Did you use the same geometry as a a metal flute - bore and tone hole diameter?

Just the differences in finish of the edge of the hole and plate will change the tone and response of a head joint. Unless you can hold the same tolerances of a metal flute, you cannot test the effect of materials.

The fact that your flutes play in tune does not prove that you have controlled for geometrical features of a conventional flute.

What is it that you are trying to prove/disprove?

Using wax and bamboo, as a flute material in same configuration yields a tone that is significantly different from each other. One doesn't need to be comparing to a metal flute, although the sound/tone is even more noticeably different. Come on, is this really that difficult to comprehend? A soft material doesn't have the same reflective properties. Wax and bamboo don't have the same reflective properties as hard shiny metals. All of the issues (head joint etc.) are irrelevant. In many ways this whole post is irrelevant as nobody is making saxes out of wax, although there are people making saxes out of bamboo (AWFUL!). Simple concept: soft material can absorb sound rather than reflect it. Depending on the material this can be partial (as in wood and wax compared to metal) which (to my ears and all how have heard these) sound completely different. Each seems to limit some of the higher frequencies, which sound-wise seems more "mellow".