Saxophones Olds Parisian and Parisian Ambassador

[PigSquealer]

F.E Olds bought stencils from a number of manufacturers for its core business which was bulk selling/renting to schools, marching bands, military...etc and branding them as ‘Olds’ with a nickname based on where it came from. They were for the budget market and built like a tank. I have never heard anyone speak highly of them. But like all things made at that time there can be some gems in the rubble. And from reading @DavidUK posts over the years that’s exactly what he looks for 😉

I would take a clean 50+ year old budget horn over any current one.
looks like a great condition & buy. Nothing wrong with enjoying any instrument for exactly what it is. Humm , haven’t had GAS for a week.

 

[DavidUK]

F.E Olds bought stencils from a number of manufacturers for its core business which was bulk selling/renting to schools, marching bands, military...etc and branding them as ‘Olds’ with a nickname based on where it came from. They were for the budget market and built like a tank. I have never heard anyone speak highly of them. But like all things made at that time there can be some gems in the rubble. And from reading @DavidUK posts over the years that’s exactly what he looks for 😉

It is tricky finding a "gem" when so much confusion abounds. I was spurred on a little by finding a few glimmers of praise for the Parisian amongst the chaff.

Here are some examples of how the three models, Parisian, Parisian Ambassador, and Ambassador always seem to get jumbled up on any thread where the poster perhaps wishes to discuss just the one model he has (Parisian...

Olds Parisian Tenor (Pierret Stencil)...surprisingly good!

I decided to buy a tenor, and looked at several "value" vintage brands (Beaugnier stencils and Holton 243s were my first stop....) but couldn't pull the trigger. Given my modest aspirations (I just bought it to practice and improve), I kept the budget modest as well and bought an Olds...

www.saxontheweb.net

Olds Parisian - who was the maker?

I have a Parisian Ambassador alto (Artemis Reginald Sax, lol), serial number 39673....mine has a very stuffy high D. Could it be the same problem as the one with the stuffy low D?

www.saxontheweb.net

It's made more difficult by this one being bought remotely as it was 130 miles away and the seller didn't have access to a PayPal account. A quick search for Cafe members in that town located one esteemed member I had sold a horn to previously and trust impeccably. He kindly agreed to have the seller deliver to him and early reports from him (a tenor player) are that it's in god nick but perhaps has a leak somewhere. He was just about to see if he could find it (I suggested a full overhaul if he had spare time 🙂) when his new baritone MP arrived and he was sidetracked.

I shan't name him in case he wishes to remain anonymous so that others don't ask him to fence GAS goods for members all over the UK!

 

[JayeNM]

...so, forgetting the merits or otherwise of any model with "Ambassador" in its name (Olds Ambassador or Olds Parisian Ambassador) have you had hands on experience with the Olds Parisian tenor? That is, to be clear, the model with only Parisian in the model title and no mention of Ambassador anywhere on the horn?
Phew!

This is what I referred to as 'the Parisian-Parisians'...Those which read 'Parisian" but not "Ambassador", which were the earlier iterations ....Yes, I have done probably 20 of those, too...they are better....

Interestingly, The Olds Ambassadors made by Martin (good) and The Olds Parisians/Parisian Ambassadors made by Pierret....were available at the SAME time. I had assumed for a while that one had supplanted the other (Pierrets supplanting the Martin stencils).

But that was not the case. A player showed me they both appear in the '57 catalog.

At some point, Olds stopped subcontracting Martin for the Olds Ambassadors and started using Buescher, which basically provided them with rebranded Elkhart 20/30A's....not bad horns, but not the Indianas which Martin was providing.

 

[JayeNM]

F.E Olds bought stencils from a number of manufacturers for its core business which was bulk selling/renting to schools, marching bands, military...etc and branding them as ‘Olds’ with a nickname based on where it came from. They were for the budget market and built like a tank. I have never heard anyone speak highly of them. But like all things made at that time there can be some gems in the rubble. And from reading @DavidUK posts over the years that’s exactly what he looks for 😉

There was no 'rubble'. Your intimation is they were bad, with maybe a few good.

Again, I have refurbed around two dozen of each of the Parisians and the Parisian Ambassadors. I have never had one customer come back to me and say "Jaye, this thing is a dog". I have had many come back and say "thanks, I like this horn".

So, I disagree. The Parisians, nicely serviced, are pretty good.

The Ambassadors, when set up properly, are decent for their money for the most part...one can do worse. Some of them showing more loosey-goosey build precision than others, however. David says 'mediocre' and I can see that as a valid descriptor for some.....
I'd posit they started out decent, closer to the Parisian-Parisians, then over their run they seem to have been cheapened down from time to time...

Would I rather have a Conn 16M or Martin Indiana (than a Parisian Ambassador)? Yes.

But, those are also 25-40% more expensive.

...if you gave me a choice between a new $295 Chinese cheapo alto, and a $295 clean/serviced Parisian Ambassador...it wouldn't be a difficult choice. The older horn.

If the choice was between the Olds PA and a Bundy I or II in same shape...I'd perhaps lean towards the American horns....

If one had a choice between a Parisian and Parisian Ambassador....take the former. The interesting thing is, while there IS a difference, the used market does not seem to recognize a difference as these are just too obscure. Thus you will see the former auction off for the same price as the latter, fairly often...

 

[JayeNM]

George, have a look at the low Bb in the blurry photos the seller sent

That is odd...it appears to have been modified, IMHO. It is half its usual size....Also, either one or two rollers have been replaced (depends on whether the originals were black and slightly smaller diameter, or brown and slightly larger.

 

[DavidUK]

David says 'mediocre' and I can see that as a valid descriptor for some.....

Not me. T'was Steve.

Bb is very odd. Why would anyone make it smaller? Anyone?

I've had some more photos of the sax sent by the current sax holder (no, not Jazzlab) which I'll post later. One explains the leak but looks like a DIY fix.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Bb is very odd. Why would you make it smaller? Anyone?

Perhaps to cater for a disability?
I've done similar mods down the years. On the face of it they seem wholly impractical - but for the client they make things accessible that otherwise wouldn't be.

 

[DavidUK]

More pics:

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

From the "holder":

"The keywork appears to be nickel, but it had been lacquered the same colour as the saxophone.

Some unusual items are:

• the octave key neck connector pin does not extend beyond the body - like first generations Yamahas
• the semi-circular strap ring
• the fancy post in the middle of the bell-key guard

The G# articulation needs adjustment - the G# key lifts when left pinkie C# is pressed. There is an adjustment screw.
The bottom C# pad lever is bent sideways, so that the pad is not completely covering the tone hole - I have included a picture. This should hopefully be a simple bending job to fix. It explains why I had difficulty with bottom C yesterday."

 

[PigSquealer]

Not sure when the Fullerton plant opened. I know it was pre-1960.
I wonder if the company has actual records.

Our History – F.E. Olds

feolds.com

 

[DavidUK]

For those interested, I found the Olds 1957 catalog for the Parisian, here: 1957 Olds Catalog

Weird how you find things isn't it... I was idly browsing for a bargain King S20 (didn't find one - although in 2013 I found a Cleveland Silversonic full pearls S20 Tenor for £1,200 and took too long to decide...) when I stumbled across an Olds Studio alto. Not seen one before so was sidetracked into researching that instead and stumbled across this thread: Here's something interesting for some of you (Olds)....

Post #12 there has a link to unlocking loads of Olds history, including the catalogue above.

As an aside I've added my Studio findings to that old thread. But don't go wandering off...!

 

[DartmoorHedgehog]

For those interested, I found the Olds 1957 catalog for the Parisian, here: 1957 Olds Catalog

They say the alto has "unusual intonation" - presumably that means unusually good, or it was a very honest advert 😀

 

[DavidUK]

I think it's probably just the translation from the maker's mother tongue into English.

 

[JayeNM]

Yes thanks for digging up that thread, I believe it was AHCheung from SOTW who did the comparisons of the Parisian and Parisian Ambassadors....if perhaps you wanna go try to find that thread. I have not seen him around there for quite some time, a good couple of years methinks.

 

[PigSquealer]

For those interested, I found the Olds 1957 catalog for the Parisian, here: 1957 Olds Catalog

Weird how you find things isn't it... I was idly browsing for a bargain King S20 (didn't find one - although in 2013 I found a Cleveland Silversonic full pearls S20 Tenor for £1,200 and took too long to decide...) when I stumbled across an Olds Studio alto. Not seen one before so was sidetracked into researching that instead and stumbled across this thread: Here's something interesting for some of you (Olds)....

Post #12 there has a link to unlocking loads of Olds history, including the catalogue above.

As an aside I've added my Studio findings to that old thread. But don't go wandering off...!

I love old catalogs thanks for the post. Always some good information if nothing else on the finishes. I would’ve never thought to look on the Martin story for Olds. Detective work on stencils I find quite enjoyable.

 

[DavidUK]

The Olds Parisian tenor arrives tomorrow... my birthday. No, I'm not doing a video unveiling!


Tempted by the Olds Studio...

It's not in as nice a condition as this one though...

F E Olds Alto Saxophone #59695 - PM Woodwind

This is an original lacquer F.E.Olds alto. It has a resonant, vibrant sound and a solid center, slightly more focused. Lacquer is in excellent condition with normal wear throughout. Most […]

pmwoodwind.com

But then it's less than half the price, and from a UK seller.

Still, what'd I get... a strangely named FrankenMartin Imperial which would be tricky to sell on. I'd try it once, decide it didn't knock my SDA off it's throne, and that's it, off it goes to the cupboard of doom.

Rare is seldom a good thing in the world of saxophones when it comes to re-sale.

🙁

 

[DavidUK]

Oooh look...

The Olds Studio in the pmwoodwind link in my post above has the same octave thumb key rest as the Olds Super...
(Super pic from: Looking For An Olds Super Alto?)

 

[thomsax]

Another european made Martin stencil 😉. A Keilwerth New King from the early 50's. Softsoldered toneholes that is something between Martin bevelded tone holes rims and a committee tone hole. Bell keys on left side which is unusal for a Keilwerth.

Vintage Keilwerth "New King" Tenor, generalüberholt, sofort spielfähig - Video | eBay

Finden Sie Top-Angebote für Vintage Keilwerth "New King" Tenor, generalüberholt, sofort spielfähig - Video bei eBay. Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!

www.ebay.de

 

[PigSquealer]

Rare can

Oooh look...

The Olds Studio in the pmwoodwind link in my post above has the same octave thumb key rest as the Olds Super...
(Super pic from: Looking For An Olds Super Alto?)

View attachment 16521

View attachment 16522

Rare is not always bad. Small production and few survivors after 60 years is not all bad. Many are still better made than new products. Mexiconns got a bad rap yet still worthy. That Olds Super is beautiful. Interesting how the fabrication has changed on arm to cups. Love the octave /thumb rest.

Happy Birthday! I like you present better than the listing.
No unpacking video 😱🙁

 

[stitch]

european made Martin stencil

 

[DavidUK]

@JayeNM - I know you, and others, have wondered about the origin of the Olds Super and whereas it seems to me from research that Martin and Buescher were variously used by Olds to manufacture some of their other saxophones I had a thought relating to the thumb rest photos above... bear with me...

Now, on the SOTW thread ( Here's something interesting for some of you (Olds).... ) I commented that the Olds Studio looks to me like a Martin Imperial due partly to the l/h pinkie key shown again under...

IF the Studio is a Martin Stencil then we next look at the octave thumb rest in my post above and see the Studio's is the same as the Super's. Follow that through and you may conclude that if the Studio was a Martin then, with an identical thumb rest, so was the Super.

But of course Olds may have got the Imperials, in parts, from Martin and added the thumb rest as an embellishment as they did with the ring in the Studio's bell brace, and the extra rollers in its pinky keys.

In that case the Super may have come from another source, or have been made by Olds themselves, and had the same thumb rest added when they came to think about that area of their weird new sax.

I did note that on @helen's site, she said of her Super:

• "David—who BTW is Swiss, and trained as a woodwind instrument maker before moving to Canada in the late 80s—noted that this entire instrument is handmade. While he was cleaning the keys, he noted he could see hammer strikes on the keys, and the hand-buffing marks on them. This speaks to the fact that this horn was not made by Martin. Yes, Olds may have employed former Martin employees in its design and creation, but this is not a fancied-up Martin Committee II like so many people seem to want to believe."

Source: The Olds Super tenor sax is home

Will we ever have a final answer as to where the Super was made?

Meanwhile... I'm trying to find any photos or info on the Olds Recording sax. Anyone?