Saxophones Olds Parisian and Parisian Ambassador

[DavidUK]

As I rummage around the 'net, I may post other findings...

Such as this Olds Yanagisawa tenor...

https://www.saxophonepeople.com/olds-tenor-sax-model-25427.html

Who knew? 😳

 

[thomsax]

Oooh look...

The Olds Studio in the pmwoodwind link in my post above has the same octave thumb key rest as the Olds Super...
(Super pic from: Looking For An Olds Super Alto?)

View attachment 16521

View attachment 16522

looks like the lh thumbrest on my "Klingsor"/Hammerschimdt tenor.

 

[JayeNM]

@JayeNM - I know you, and others, have wondered about the origin of the Olds Super and whereas it seems to me from research that Martin and Buescher were variously used by Olds to manufacture some of their other saxophones I had a thought relating to the thumb rest photos above... bear with me...

Now, on the SOTW thread ( Here's something interesting for some of you (Olds).... ) I commented that the Olds Studio looks to me like a Martin Imperial due partly to the l/h pinkie key shown again under...

View attachment 16524View attachment 16525

IF the Studio is a Martin Stencil then we next look at the octave thumb rest in my post above and see the Studio's is the same as the Super's. Follow that through and you may conclude that if the Studio was a Martin then, with an identical thumb rest, so was the Super.

But of course Olds may have got the Imperials, in parts, from Martin and added the thumb rest as an embellishment as they did with the ring in the Studio's bell brace, and the extra rollers in its pinky keys.

In that case the Super may have come from another source, or have been made by Olds themselves, and had the same thumb rest added when they came to think about that area of their weird new sax.

I did note that on @helen's site, she said of her Super:

• "David—who BTW is Swiss, and trained as a woodwind instrument maker before moving to Canada in the late 80s—noted that this entire instrument is handmade. While he was cleaning the keys, he noted he could see hammer strikes on the keys, and the hand-buffing marks on them. This speaks to the fact that this horn was not made by Martin. Yes, Olds may have employed former Martin employees in its design and creation, but this is not a fancied-up Martin Committee II like so many people seem to want to believe."

Source: The Olds Super tenor sax is home

Will we ever have a final answer as to where the Super was made?

Meanwhile... I'm trying to find any photos or info on the Olds Recording sax. Anyone?

1) The Studio is a late Imperial...do NOT waste yoru $ on it. A run of the mill Indiana is a better horn, its keywork is slicker, and as you said this horn as a stencil has really almost no market value at all.

2) I still lean towards the explanation that Olds bought the old tooling from Martin and may (or may not) have hired a former Martin worker or two to start up the Supers.

There is no way, IMHO, that there is not a design connection between the Supers and Martins. This doesn't necessarily mean they had to be made at Martin, mind you.

Various hybrid theories also are possible...i.e. Martin fabricated some parts and sent them to Olds for assembly, while at the Olds plant other parts were also fabricated and included on the horns during assembly as well.

 

[DavidUK]

The Studio in the ad sold two years ago but the online shop forgot to take the ad down... Phew!

Parisian has arrived not long ago. I'll open it tomorrow morning.

 

[thomsax]

Maybe Olds Super neck, tube and bell was made by Martin (MBIC or IBIC) If it's a Comm II tube construction you should play and compared the a Martin Comm II to a Olds Super. They should have the same "voice". The shape and design of the toneholes should also be same. Don't look to much at the design of the keys, trumbrests ..... that's is easy make and put on for skilled "home worker" or a small workshop.

 

[thomsax]

Often when we see a sax with soft soldered on toneholes we say it's a Martin. And it's often a Martin. But there were other manufactors that built saxes with soft solderd on toneholes à la Martin. I've seen Keilwerth (Nauheim), Hohner (Tossingen) and Kohlert (Winnenden). All made after WWII. And there were some French manufators that also made saxes with soft soldered on toneholes. In USA Couturier, (La Porte. Indiana) also made saxes with toenholes like Martin. Courtier company was sold to Lyon and Healy and later Holton bought Lyon and Healy. So it's not sure a "Martin" is a Martin. But the often are!

Was the perfect curved soprano a Martin or a "Courtier"? King Curtis played a perfect curved soprano. There was a YT clip with Curtis playing his perfect curved. It's not available anymore. The King was not playing a King (Saxello).

 

[DavidUK]

What I did establish was that certainly in 1939 Olds had all the facilities they needed to make whatever they wanted to in house. Page three of their 1939 catalogue tells us:

"This advantage of a vitally interested personnel and the fact that Olds instruments are completely made in the Olds factory-with no parts other than the raw materials being obtained elsewhere-insure that superlative quality that is characteristic of Olds, even in the smallest detail."
Source: Olds 1939 Catalog

But of course Olds' fame was from Trombones, Trumpets, and Cornets so perhaps by the 50's they were late to the party, didn't want to delve into saxophones with all their own resources, and so outsourced the parts manufacture to other well established makers adding some flourishes to individualise theirs from looking identical to the mainly french and US suppliers. A very sensible route to take when sax manufacture isn't your main stay.

 

[stitch]

Another european made Martin stencil

Often when we see a sax with soft soldered on toneholes we say it's a Martin. And it's often a Martin. But there were other manufactors that built saxes with soft solderd on toneholes à la Martin.

Indeed so. But a European-made Martin stencil is a contradiction in terms.
A Martin stencil is by definition made by Martin, and therefore cannot be European.
We might perhaps call it a Martin copy (if Martin was the first to use such toneholes) but perhaps Martin-style would be more accurate?

 

[Stephen Howard]

(if Martin was the first to use such toneholes)

They weren't. That claim to fame goes to the boss man himself - Adolphe Sax.

Edit: Strictly speaking, even he wasn't the first. Soldered on toneholes were in earlier use on Opheclides and suchlike.

 

[DavidUK]

Just a note to say I've started a "repair" thread for the Parisian: 50's Tenor - Lifting G# with the pinky keys, Low B, Bb, C#

Not that it's too bad, just need some help with the bell keys at present. As Steve may recall from his review the mechanism is a bit crude. I even had to get my Haynes manual out! 😳

 

[helen]

A couple thoughts about the Olds Super since it being discussed here.

1. I have reached out to the owner of the website who has all the Olds catalogues, to see if he could find any Olds Super saxophones in his stuff. He could not. Why? Not sure.

I don't know if he has the actual hard copies, or if only has PDFs. EG: I have both in my collection. People sometimes send me catalogue collections, but only send me what they think I'd be interested in--leaving out the brass pages for example.

It is possible that someone sent him PDFs with only the brass stuff in it, and given the Olds Super sax was only made for a couple of years, we're not dealing with a large window where we can find them in print.

2. Since I saw the Super the first time, I immediately noticed the similarity between the Hammerschmidt's and Olds' octave levers. However, whereas the Hammerschmidt has 3 octave vents, the Olds only has the regular 2.

3. I had reached out to the people at Olds to see if they could find some stuff in their archives on the Olds Super saxophone. Last I heard the man I corresponded with sent is EA down to the archive room to check. For all I know she is still down there. 😉

Seriously, the fact that I never heard back indicates that they never found anything--which he suggested would be the case, since he told me they purged their basement a number of years ago. That said, after the holidays I will endeavour to reach out once more and follow-up.

 

[stitch]

I will endeavour to reach out once more and follow-up.

I have reached out to the owner of the website

I had reached out to the people at Olds

Maybe your arms aren't long enough?

 

[Jazz Is All]

Reading the @Jazz Is All threads sidetracked me again onto French horns.

I happened upon the @Stephen Howard review of the Old Parisian, which he didn't like much: Olds ( Pierret ) Parisian tenor saxophone review

But... I think the one he reviewed is actually a Parisian Ambassador, a model I've owned in Alto guise and concur it wasn't very good at all! The Parisian, as here OLDS PARISIAN TENOR SAX – Made in France | Doctor Sax Woodwinds has a cross hatched G# and subtly different l/h pinky cluster and from what I read is the earlier, superior, instrument. White rollers also seem to denote the Ambassador model.

Am I right or wrong? Why do I ask? It seems the Parisian might be a model to track down at a suitable price, but not another Ambassador.

AND... it's my birthday in less than two weeks (9 days).

Who's had either and liked/disliked them... and why?

Thanks for any input.

If you get it and it doesn't turn out good, you can always blame it on me for sidetracking you into it.

 

[Jazz Is All]

FWIW...I have refurbed around 25 or so Parisian Ambassadors....they really are NOT bad horns (keep in mind here this is a horn with a market value of $300 for an Alto, $450-500 for a Tenor, in good playing shape - so I think one has to keep it's appropriate slot in the market in mind, here).

They did have the attributes which Stephen and others mention, when they came in...but most of those should be addressed by a tech during a servicing....and once they are and the horn is put into good regulation....again, IMHO, on a market shelf which may include horns such as Bundy and Armstrong....the Ambassadors weren't bad.
I had alot of happy customers on limited budgets who bought those.
So I think they are getting beaten up here (and everywhere) a bit more than they deserve. I also recall there being variability AMONG the Ambassadors - some were more precisely built than others - so I dunno if that related to the timeline in which they were built (i.e. earlier ones better, later ones not, etc).

But IMHO, put one into good, serviced playing shape, it's a respectable enough sax for the $. I disagree that they sounded thin. At the request of a prospective buyer, I once compared them side by side to Yama 21/23's...and an Olds Ambassador was richer, tonally....not only did I feel that way, but the new owner's teacher also was pleasantly surprised by it, sonically.

Only reason I stopped refurbing them is that the used market tightened up, and there's no profit in trying to turn a $300-500 horn anymore.

But, the Parisian-Parisians...they were a notch up, certainly....

OT but related, what is your opinion or experience of the Maurice Boiste Artiste altos from the 50s. It was mistakenly claimed to be a Pierret stencil on Saxpics years ago but Helen dispelled that notion on Bassic Sax. However, there is no info about how they play, sound, are mechanically, hold up to use, etc etc. Can you give some insight into them since they are also Parisian-Made saxes?

 

[Jazz Is All]

The Olds Parisian tenor arrives tomorrow... my birthday. No, I'm not doing a video unveiling!


Tempted by the Olds Studio...

View attachment 16520


It's not in as nice a condition as this one though...

F E Olds Alto Saxophone #59695 - PM Woodwind

This is an original lacquer F.E.Olds alto. It has a resonant, vibrant sound and a solid center, slightly more focused. Lacquer is in excellent condition with normal wear throughout. Most […]

pmwoodwind.com

But then it's less than half the price, and from a UK seller.

Still, what'd I get... a strangely named FrankenMartin Imperial which would be tricky to sell on. I'd try it once, decide it didn't knock my SDA off it's throne, and that's it, off it goes to the cupboard of doom.

Rare is seldom a good thing in the world of saxophones when it comes to re-sale.

🙁

WHAT??? You're not doing an arrival and unveiling video?? After tricking me into doing them you are going to crap out on us?? You will be persona non grata if you don't show the horn being unboxed and closeups of it's body parts. Nobody will forgive you otherwise..... 😡😱🙁😵

 

[nigeld]

If every member of this forum and SOTW did an unboxing video every time that they got a new saxophone then the internet would get full up.

 

[Jeanette]

If every member of this forum and SOTW did an unboxing video every time that they got a new saxophone then the internet would get full up.

@DavidUK on his own could fill the internet if he had filmed every unboxing 🙂

Jx

 

[DavidUK]

WHAT??? You're not doing an arrival and unveiling video?? After tricking me into doing them you are going to crap out on us?? You will be persona non grata if you don't show the horn being unboxed and closeups of it's body parts. Nobody will forgive you otherwise..... 😡😱🙁😵

I take it you haven't noticed my DIY tech'ing thread, with photos of my efforts of the last few days?

 

[JayeNM]

OT but related, what is your opinion or experience of the Maurice Boiste Artiste altos from the 50s. It was mistakenly claimed to be a Pierret stencil on Saxpics years ago but Helen dispelled that notion on Bassic Sax. However, there is no info about how they play, sound, are mechanically, hold up to use, etc etc. Can you give some insight into them since they are also Parisian-Made saxes?

I have only refurbed one Boiste, and it was a really, really well-made and nice sounding horn. Very substantial instrument, it was a Tenor. But based on that one I have high pretty regard for them.

 

[Jazz Is All]

I have only refurbed one Boiste, and it was a really, really well-made and nice sounding horn. Very substantial instrument, it was a Tenor. But based on that one I have high pretty regard for them.

I'm following this one.....can you please tell me what you think about it? Why are all the pearls different colors like that? Are they aged or is that their original color...some kind of tiger pattern or marble or something?



https://www.ebay.es/itm/Vintage-Saxophone-Alto-Maurice-Boiste-Serie-Artiste/203052203387?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=d19dcee3dfd548bca49f67a3dca03c55&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&mehot=none&sd=383854220322&itm=203052203387&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2380057&brand=-+Sans+marque/G�n�rique+-&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:d8c2253e-43ac-11eb-a0a0-4626c77043ca|parentrq:863705261760a4d729816dd6ffe92b04|iid:1


but unless I can get it for less I can't afford it at this price as I just bought the Couesnon. If I were to spend that amount it would be for either a pristine TT IV in silver or a Martin Indiana I'm watching. Since this seller says it was just overhauled I doubt he'll lower it much if at all, but one never knows in hard times. The TT is basically the same as my current long time alto, but it is getting nearer to needing pads, and I am thinking that if I got a really good one, with untarnished silver too, I can then put mine up for sale at a reasonable price and knock on wood that someone will go for it. It's the best alto I ever had up until getting this Couesnon which is really quite excellent in every aspect. The Indiana idea is because I would love to have a sort of matched pair of Martin alto and tenor....sort of, although since my tenor is a Comm III the alto would need to be one too, but that's dreaming money wise. So an Indiana would be second best. I had a Committee Handcraft alto back about 6 years ago during the summer in NY, but I sold it before coming back home to Spain. My wife hates extra bags on the trip and at the time I only really played alto in the summer....the TT was originally in NY for 3 summers. I sold the Comm I to Peter Loeb and lately I've been kicking myself about having done that. As the saying goes, "If only hindsight were foreskin we'd all be much more attentive about what we are doing with our most precious belongings".