Mouthpieces Mouthpiece Replating?

[DesertRoads]

I’ve recently purchased some pre-owned metal mouthpieces where much of the silver plate has worn off. Are there health concerns playing on pure brass? Or should I look into having them re-silver plated?

 

[Nick Wyver]

There are no health concerns. Loads of mouthpieces are bare brass. Interestingly (or not), I don’t think I’ve ever seen a silver plated mouthpiece.

 

[PigSquealer]

I’ve recently purchased some pre-owned metal mouthpieces where much of the silver plate has worn off. Are there health concerns playing on pure brass? Or should I look into having them re-silver plated?

No issues that I know of. Also having them re-plated is risky if they don’t know what they’re doing. Buffing wheels can destroy the table & rails.

 

[skeller047]

I have a silver plated mouthpiece. I also have a brass one with no plating whatsoever. Both play fantastic! I’m not dead yet, nor am I crazy. (Though there’s an argument on the latter point.)

 

[Dr G]

+1 to “No issues”.

If they are worth having touched up and replated, I recommend Matt Marantz.

Marantz Custom Mouthpieces and Refacing Rates

List of services offered by Marantz Custom Mouthpieces

www.marantzcustommouthpieces.com

 

[Tuppertn]

I don't know if there's truly no risk at all. I'm sure it can't be reliably quantified and if it were it would likely be very, very low.

Brass usually contains 2-3% lead to aid in machinability. It's not much, but it is detectable on the surface of the brass. It's enough that metal mouthpieces made it the US usually have a Prop 65 warning (like everything else ). The thing is, plating doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference as lead leaches through it.

It's there, but I don't know how much more stoopider you'd be after playing a bare brass mouthpiece for 8 hours a day over 70 years. Lead is in absolutely everything now since the whole tetraethyl lead debacle of the last century.

Bare brass tastes funny, though.

 

[Targa]

I don't know if there's truly no risk at all. I'm sure it can't be reliably quantified and if it were it would likely be very, very low.

Brass usually contains 2-3% lead to aid in machinability. It's not much, but it is detectable on the surface of the brass. It's enough that metal mouthpieces made it the US usually have a Prop 65 warning (like everything else ). The thing is, plating doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference as lead leaches through it.

It's there, but I don't know how much more stoopider you'd be after playing a bare brass mouthpiece for 8 hours a day over 70 years. Lead is in absolutely everything now since the whole tetraethyl lead debacle of the last century.

Bare brass tastes funny, though.

After growing up with lead toys, lead paint and most important lead water pipes like everything else considered ‘deadly’ now I don’t really care.

 

[Tuppertn]

After growing up with lead toys, lead paint and most important lead water pipes like everything else considered ‘deadly’ now I don’t really care.

Me neither, really. But just imagine how much smarter we were all meant to be. 😛

 

[Dr G]

I don't know if there's truly no risk at all. I'm sure it can't be reliably quantified and if it were it would likely be very, very low.

Brass usually contains 2-3% lead to aid in machinability. It's not much, but it is detectable on the surface of the brass. It's enough that metal mouthpieces made it the US usually have a Prop 65 warning (like everything else ). The thing is, plating doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference as lead leaches through it.

I’d really like to see your evidence on this. “Leaching” implies that a solvent is penetrating the silver plate, dissolving the lead, and that the lead is then transported back through the silver plate barrier. Does lead actually accumulate on the surface?

As far as “detectable”…. I question the zero tolerance threshold. There are a lot of environmental factors that contribute to our state of health. Diffusion of lead at ambient temperatures is low. I question whether any detectable lead at the surface is replenished. If one were concerned, one could use a quantitative swipe to test for detectable lead, polish the mouthpiece with gentle metal cleaner, then test again.

I am in the camp of “acceptably low risk”. If one is averse to the potential of lead contact, then they should avoid brass mouthpieces. Of course, if any contact at all is a risk, they should also avoid touching a saxophone that has soldered parts on it.

 

[davidk]

I don't know if there's truly no risk at all. I'm sure it can't be reliably quantified and if it were it would likely be very, very low.

Brass usually contains 2-3% lead to aid in machinability. It's not much, but it is detectable on the surface of the brass. It's enough that metal mouthpieces made it the US usually have a Prop 65 warning (like everything else ). The thing is, plating doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference as lead leaches through it.

It's there, but I don't know how much more stoopider you'd be after playing a bare brass mouthpiece for 8 hours a day over 70 years. Lead is in absolutely everything now since the whole tetraethyl lead debacle of the last century.

Bare brass tastes funny, though.

I asked Vandoren about lead content and playing unplated metal mouthpieces. This is their reply

---

Dear Sir,

thank you for writing Vandoren.
Although our mouthpieces do not contain lead since 2019, we recommend to avoid playing a mouthpiece which plating has worn…

Best regards,

Laurent Sultan, Vandoren Paris

 

[davidk]

I’d really like to see your evidence on this. “Leaching” implies that a solvent is penetrating the silver plate, dissolving the lead, and that the lead is then transported back through the silver plate barrier. Does lead actually accumulate on the surface?

As far as “detectable”…. I question the zero tolerance threshold. There are a lot of environmental factors that contribute to our state of health. Diffusion of lead at ambient temperatures is low. I question whether any detectable lead at the surface is replenished. If one were concerned, one could use a quantitative swipe to test for detectable lead, polish the mouthpiece with gentle metal cleaner, then test again.

I am in the camp of “acceptably low risk”. If one is averse to the potential of lead contact, then they should avoid brass mouthpieces. Of course, if any contact at all is a risk, they should also avoid touching a saxophone that has soldered parts on it.

I bought a lead testing swab set from Amazon and tested a worn part of a metal Theo Wanne Lakshmi mouthpiece. It came up positive, so lead is present at the surface. I repeated on multiple days. This was on the table, but I do still wipe that part of the mouthpiece with a cloth after playing. The beak had intact plating and tested negative.

 

[Dr G]

I bought a lead testing swab set from Amazon and tested a worn part of a metal Theo Wanne Lakshmi mouthpiece. It came up positive, so lead is present at the surface. I repeated on multiple days. This was on the table, but I do still wipe that part of the mouthpiece with a cloth after playing. The beak had intact plating and tested negative.

That leaves the question of whether that lead is available for biological uptake and its quantity. Thanks for also checking and reporting regarding the region of intact plating.

If you have remaining test strips, have you tested the table after a mild application of metal polish?

 

[Tuppertn]

I’d really like to see your evidence on this. “Leaching” implies that a solvent is penetrating the silver plate, dissolving the lead, and that the lead is then transported back through the silver plate barrier. Does lead actually accumulate on the surface?

You're right. I should have said "mitrates" instead of "leaches". Perhaps it's more like what happens when you put gold plate directly over brass. That information came from this article regarding the company's choice to put a Prop 65 warning on their brass instrument mouthpieces. Our metal mouthpieces aren't fundamentally different, unless you get a clear confirmation from the manufacturer like in post #10 ( @davidk ). Theo's site addresses the Prop 65 thing as well, though they say they do it more for potential liability reasons, not for health concerns.

I have not tested any of it myself as @davidk has.

 

[Dr G]

You're right. I should have said "mitrates" instead of "leaches". Perhaps it's more like what happens when you put gold plate directly over brass. That information came from this article regarding the company's choice to put a Prop 65 warning on their brass instrument mouthpieces. Our metal mouthpieces aren't fundamentally different, unless you get a clear confirmation from the manufacturer like in post #10 ( @davidk ). Theo's site addresses the Prop 65 thing as well, though they say they do it more for potential liability reasons, not for health concerns.

I have not tested any of it myself as @davidk has.

The issue of plating gold directly over brass is a lattice mismatch that prevents adequate atomic bonding due to interatomic distances. An interface layer of intermediate dimensions solves that issue. It is not about creating a diffusion barrier.

I agree that Prop 65 is more about liability than health.

 

[Targa]

Me neither, really. But just imagine how much smarter we were all meant to be. 😛

Probably for the best; I’ve frequently been told ‘you’re too clever for your own good’.

 

[Tonehole]

I play vintage stainless steel pieces Berg, Lawton, Beechler. But my D Ring and NY Tone Master have little plating left.

It seems that the Chinese have even managed to make stainless steel toxic! So if buying a cheap stainless steel mouthpiece from China be aware not just that it is a knock off but likely is toxic as well.

Some consumers in China have reportedly tested their own kitchenware and found high levels of heavy metals, specifically manganese. Some manufacturers use trichloroethylene a carcinogenic cleaning agent. Plus stainless often leaches chromium and nickel but it subsides with time.
Much of the 304 stainless the Chinese sell is not 304 as it rusts and pits.

I can only imagie what those bare brass and copper mouthpieces from China test for.

 

[lig]

I've played bare brass or worn plated pieces for years.

Come to think of it - maybe that might explain a few things. 😀 😀

Seriously though - I don't think there's much of a risk. As previously mentioned I'd rather not risk messing up a great playing piece by having it plated.