Playing the saxophone Improvisation - Does it suddenly 'click'?

[Pete Thomas]

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GisCRxREDkY


And now back to the topic

 

[Pete Effamy]

The OP mentioned Autumn Leaves. I can see the usefulness

 

[Targa]

I thought it was DBDDBS ?

Rhys

Me too. I didn’t get what A meant

Yes but as 'S' obviously isn't a note I had to think for a while and go for 'A' for Alive.

 

[ghostler]

But you are not representing the majority here Nick. And Lennie would remind you that that piece alternates between 6/8 and 3/4 rather than staying in 6/8

Sometimes an arranger will try some originality and change the time signature from 4/4 to 3/4 or 6/8. Sometimes it does add an interesting variant to the original. John Cash did this with the traditional Gospel song Life's Railway to Heaven by M.E. Abbey, pub.1890, changing it from a waltz beat to modern country western 4/4 beat.

And, regarding a change from waltz 3/4 to 6/8, a timeless Christmas classic like "O Holy Night" lends itself well to a modern 6/8 slow rock beat. (It is written in 12/8 with 6/8 inserted here and there, see: https://library.timelesstruths.org/library/music/O/Oh_Holy_Night/Oh_Holy_Night.pdf , Public Domain.) Those unfamiliar, I will show them on an arrange style keyboard how that simply selecting a tasteful slow rock melds well with this song.

However, sometimes I prefer that the arranger kept the beat similar to the original as recorded, for example, 25 Or 6 To 4 by Chicago has been altered from 4/4 to 3/4 in Hal Leonard's Jazz Play-Along Vol. 124, Jazz-Rock Horn Hits.

Out of personal preference I like the original beat versus this new beat, so I will practise it for the sake of working on solos, but it is not a favourite of mine.

The OP mentioned Autumn Leaves. I can see the usefulness

Autumn Leaves has always been a favourite of mine whether for my Eb sopranino clarinet, alto or bari sax and Bb for soprano clarinet or soprano or tenor sax. I consider it a timeless classic, IMO should be in the repitoire of all aspiring jazz musicians.

 

[CliveMA]

But you are not representing the majority here Nick. And Lennie would remind you that that piece alternates between 6/8 and 3/4 rather than staying in 6/8

3/4 without vibrato and 6/8 with (joking) 😁

 

[CliveMA]

subconsciously playing a melodic line of phrase,

My favourite ballad player is Scott Hamilton. I am inspired by his melodic solos.

I am particularly impressed with his coherence across the whole song, matching his well-chosen embellishments of the original melody with echos and enhancements in his solos that fit together like a hand in a glove. His solo melodies enchant me for hours after I listen to his songs, more than the original.

I very much take your point about context and not a chord or scale in isolation. Nonetheless I find it useful for me to do both bottom up analysis (from notes and scales and chords to II-V-Is to AABA to ...) as well as top down analysis (from mood and rhythm and melody to how the melody tells a story to how detailed motifs assist that telling and engage and re-engage the listener).

 

[Pete Effamy]

3/4 without vibrato and 6/8 with (joking) 😁

He’s a very naughty boy (Eric Idle?)

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Thread started in 6/24 and Autumn Leaves posted in 2/25.
The elusive ability to improvise/compose ain't clicked yet.
Wonder why.
Horn has lotsa air, but might be thinking of the other tune you posted.
Breath support needs more work.
Vibrato. 👍
Intonation and articulation needs work.
Scale books like Pares etc etc, might be useful for smooth, not tentative hands, if accomplished properly with the metronome.
Kids I knew, long ago, including me, put the instrument down, picked up paper, pencil, eraser, and starting getting, unstuck.

Back in the mid '70s, a daytime talk show on TV, had some young bands, that came to NYC to make it, perform for a noted record producer.
After a band my wife knew played, they had a day job in her office, Clive said, "everyone loves a 6/8 shuffle".
If you're stuck in a rut, in 4/4 or Cut, try something else?
The Allmans used a 9/8 in some fun tunes.

 

[Digger2054]

Breath support needs more work.

I am a bit lazy with it, it's become more evident the larger the horn I play. Intonation is always fine, I'm definitely a sucker for punishment and play old horns 🙈😂

Think I shelve it for a while and work on the other stuff and come back to it.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Sometimes an arranger will try some originality and change the time signature from 4/4 to 3/4 or 6/8. Sometimes it does add an interesting variant to the original. John Cash did this with the traditional Gospel song Life's Railway to Heaven by M.E. Abbey, pub.1890, changing it from a waltz beat to modern country western 4/4 beat.

And, regarding a change from waltz 3/4 to 6/8, a timeless Christmas classic like "O Holy Night" lends itself well to a modern 6/8 slow rock beat. (It is written in 12/8 with 6/8 inserted here and there, see: https://library.timelesstruths.org/library/music/O/Oh_Holy_Night/Oh_Holy_Night.pdf , Public Domain.) Those unfamiliar, I will show them on an arrange style keyboard how that simply selecting a tasteful slow rock melds well with this song.

However, sometimes I prefer that the arranger kept the beat similar to the original as recorded, for example, 25 Or 6 To 4 by Chicago has been altered from 4/4 to 3/4 in Hal Leonard's Jazz Play-Along Vol. 124, Jazz-Rock Horn Hits.

View attachment 28254
Out of personal preference I like the original beat versus this new beat, so I will practise it for the sake of working on solos, but it is not a favourite of mine.

Autumn Leaves has always been a favourite of mine whether for my Eb sopranino clarinet, alto or bari sax and Bb for soprano clarinet or soprano or tenor sax. I consider it a timeless classic, IMO should be in the repitoire of all aspiring jazz musicians.

My point in “less is more” is this:

Generally, any question about how to gain technical proficiency or how to improve improvisation on here is answered by the semi pros and professionals in an almost “list everything” / absorb everything way - because it’s what we did and we know that it works (over time and many many hours) - probably under the guidance of a teacher and/or a conservatoire too.

Much of the time, such a question comes from someone who will not want to do transcriptions (for example, as we’ve recently seen on a thread), or have the energy to flog away as if on a lifelong quest.

That’s my view. Pointers for Autumn Leaves - compose a bass line; play in 6/8 or 3/4… great if you’re on the lifelong quest, but for a few pointers? It’s a bit like saying “start with learning 2-5-1s in all keys” - people switch off.

 

[Pete Thomas]

It’s a bit like saying “start with learning 2-5-1s in all keys” - people switch off.

I've seen people say that and it's often from very inexperienced teachers who are students or newly graduated students.

As my first mother-in-law used to say "Two five ones? Phooey! Go on, have some more gefilte fish"

 

[CliveMA]

View: https://youtu.be/IvTgwddCt5Q?si=q3SIJaKrPJEmLjpG


Dr Wally does not espose learning "2-5-1s in all 12 keys." Didn't work for him.

 

[Pete Effamy]

View: https://youtu.be/IvTgwddCt5Q?si=q3SIJaKrPJEmLjpG


Dr Wally does not espose learning "2-5-1s in all 12 keys." Didn't work for him.

I don’t understand how it wouldn’t help you if you undertake / wish to play “The American Songbook” as you’re just looking at chords that will come your way time and time again. If you’re not setting yourself up as a serious jazzer then no, its importance is greatly diminished.

 

[Digger2054]

Had a lesson today, we've been working on improvising on another piece, whilst the theory is starting to stick I'm still blindly noodling along.

After a chat and some explanations, I'm playing basic 1 note rhythm through the changes, my teacher is playing his own thing beside me.

Soon enough, I'm adding another chord tone, changing octaves, varying the basic rhythm.

"I got a bit giddy then", despite being very basic it was good fun, it was one of those bizarre moments where I wasn't thinking about it, it just happened. I kept my place through the changes, even when I wasn't playing.

It's nothing major, but was a moment where I realised "perhaps I can do this".

Next he sang a rhythm, and expected me play it using chord tones, that resulted him having to play it, and I'd play it back.

I'll be doing similar in my practice, if I can't sing it, I certainly can't play it.

It certainly doesn't just click, but I'm enjoying the journey.

*I've been working on numerous other things as well as improvising.

 

[cappers]

Great to hear @Digger2054 experience and progress.

My beginner's foray into improvising hasn't been as daunting as I expected. I think one of my first posts on here was that my goal is to play all this music I have in my head. I have listened to and hummed and whistled music for as long as I can remember, improvising fills, riffs, melodies etc. I can hear it in my head and it comes out my mouth! How to translate that to coming out of a saxophone?

I tend to play by ear although I'm aware of the chord tones in the back of my mind. I can't think and process theory and play at the same time. I can hear where the music is going and somehow what notes to play but it's almost subconscious. It was a bit unstructured at first but I'm trying to concentrate on rhthym and timing and simple phrases.

Band practice tonight was on improvising so we all could get some practise. The MD chose songs and asked people to play the solos. He picked me for four - Alfie's Theme, Cold Duck Time, Georgia and Killer Joe. I know I didn't do anything terrible but I thought it overall a bit 'meh'.

Afterwards he said my improvising is getting better all the time, good rhythm and phrasing, even some voice leading, well done keep at it! I said I thought it was pants, and he replied it's because I'm getting better I can see how I could improve.

Nothing has clicked but incremental bitty steps. And great fun!

 

[Digger2054]

That's what I'm aiming for @cappers the point where I'm not thinking chords, and what notes, and thinking more in rhythm, the note choice will be almost instinctive.

It's certainly a challenge 👍

My teacher says the same, the better you get, the more critical you become, it's a vicious circle.

Glad you're enjoying it and you've the support of your MD, just keep plugging away.

 

[skeller047]

I tend to play by ear although I'm aware of the chord tones in the back of my mind. I can't think and process theory and play at the same time. I can hear where the music is going and somehow what notes to play but it's almost subconscious. It was a bit unstructured at first but I'm trying to concentrate on rhthym and timing and simple phrases.

That's what I'm aiming for @cappers the point where I'm not thinking chords, and what notes, and thinking more in rhythm, the note choice will be almost instinctive.

Hear it then play it. That is the goal. Or hear it and play it at the same time, perhaps. To do this, you need an idea of what note you want, and then you play it on your horn. So the sound you hear and the act of playing it are instantaneous, like singing or whistling.

To do that, one needs to become comfortable with the horn. And aware that when you blow with these fingers down you make a particular sound, so when your inner ear commands that sound, you know what to do without having to figure it out. So that particular sound and what you do to produce it become one in your mind.

So what’s the best way to get there? The easy answer is time - certainly many months, if you are able to play 3 or 4 hours (or more) every day. Much longer time if you have less time per day. But a certain type of practice can shorten that time. It will still take time, but months become weeks and years become months.

The key is to be aware of what you are playing, and how it relates to the rest of the music around it. Yes, even in strictly technical practice. Spend time playing a slow scale against a drone of the root. So for tenor, get a drone to play C (concert pitch), then play each note of the D major scale (tenor key) on your horn. Listen to how each note sounds against the root, and try to develop a feeling for that sound. Then try with a different key. Eventually do this for every scale.

If you are working on a scale pattern (say in thirds, like C-E-D-F-E-G-F-A… etc.), try playing that pattern over a backing track for a simple tune. Like a slow blues, play the scale corresponding to the chord you are on, listening carefully to how the pattern or scale fits against the chord.

Two simple examples of training your ear to fit your saxophone playing into the music around you. There are literally billions of ways to do this kind of work. The good news is the more you work on this kind of awareness, the easier it becomes and the more connections you make in your musical consciousness.

For this kind of work, simple apps like iRealPro are key. You can use them to construct exercises for yourself. Working on timing? Take a key you are familiar with, make a practice tune that is just one chord and work on your rhythmic patterns against the backing track. All while building your awareness of what the 9th sounds like against a dominant 7th chord. And in multiple tempos and styles.

Finally, spend as much time listening to the recorded performances of the tunes you are trying to play as you do practicing. As you work on your ear, you will begin to recognize what the pros are doing, and that will fuel your growth.

Just a few random ideas to help you guys click 🙂

 

[cappers]

To do that, one needs to become comfortable with the horn. And aware that when you blow with these fingers down you make a particular sound, so when your inner ear commands that sound, you know what to do without having to figure it out. So that particular sound and what you do to produce it become one in your mind.

Thanks as always for the advice.
Not all the time but recently I hear the tune in my head, keeping an ear on the background harmony, and hear the note to play in my mind. My fingers press the correct keys and my breath control and articulation just happen, without me thinking. Doesn't always work; if I start to think about chords I lose the flow. I do check the chords beforehand so I have an idea of what's coming and I think I can hear some of them even if I couldn't tell you what it is. It's more the motion and feel of the notes.

I know it will take hours of practise and these are early steps but hey ho I'm enjoying it.

If you are working on a scale pattern (say in thirds, like C-E-D-F-E-G-F-A… etc.), try playing that pattern over a backing track for a simple tune. Like a slow blues, play the scale corresponding to the chord you are on, listening carefully to how the pattern or scale fits against the chord.

Funily enough I've been doing that for a couple of weeks now. Then mixing up the 3rds, adding repeats, rests, and other notes in the scale as I feel.

Exploring, experimenting, trial and error. I'm even enjoying 'theory' which at first I thought I'd avoid as too complex and academic. I find it fascinating and it helps me understand what's happening, the way a certain sound is the way it is. I might be able to play along by ear without knowing what I'm doing but a bit of theory helps. Some has sunk in and influences what I play and it has helped me understand how to achieve a sound rather than stumbling across it.

Such fun!