Playing the saxophone Improvisation - Does it suddenly 'click'?

[Pete Effamy]

Thinking about chords is thinking vertically. Great if you are playing piano, maybe not so much if you are playing an instrument which only plays single notes.

Thinking melodically is thinking horizontally. Like drawing a line that goes from one point to another - the line may curve and squiggle but it has a start and an end.

Both approaches are valid, but the linear mode works better for saxophone playing. We only have arpeggios for implying vertical harmony, which can end up sounding mechanical - but a melody is like a pretty girl. (To reverse a lyric…)

I agree. But I think that the problem is that people tend to think that the vertical chordal approach is theoretical and the linear, melodic approach isn’t - and so no study is done and they “fly blind”.

The linear approach still needs to be informed, and many accomplished players cite the importance of transcription. But, not someone else’s, your own work. Along with lots of listening to great players and having a good idea about what you’re trying to create.

 

[Pete Thomas]

But, not someone else’s, your own work.

I haven’t actually come across anyone saying that specifically but it’s a great thing to do. With the caveat transcribing shouldn’t be about just writing down the notes, that’s just a small part of it. The big important bit is analysing.

Why You Shouldn't Transcribe

But I thought we were supposed to transcribe!!! Yes, you are but it's not just about transcribing, it's about whether you analyse and learn from it

tamingthesaxophone.com

 

[Pete Effamy]

I haven’t actually come across anyone saying that specifically but it’s a great thing to do. With the caveat transcribing shouldn’t be about just writing down the notes, that’s just a small part of it. The big important bit is analysing.

Why You Shouldn't Transcribe

But I thought we were supposed to transcribe!!! Yes, you are but it's not just about transcribing, it's about whether you analyse and learn from it

tamingthesaxophone.com

Just the other week I listened to Sanborn’s last podcast on music with guest Christian McBride. He talks about it, having transcribed a trombone solo he loved when young.

If you do it yourself, it’s far more likely to embed.

Marienthal has talked about it. I’ve heard it over and over.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Marienthal has talked about it. I’ve heard it over and over.

I don't disagree, just saying I've never heard anyone talk about it even mention it. But it's a good idea

 

[mizmar]

Speaking as a beginner who's taking an ear training class right now I think part of the issue might be that most beginners have very underdeveloped listening skills....

Absolutely my experience also.
I took up sax, in part, to be able to "get" what I listen to; what's going on; people suggesting "just listen" etc. Don't get the point.
Not getting what it's like to be inside a learners head is a problem.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Whilst not advocating one in favour of the other (ear training or theory study), Michael Brecker said that the chord symbols that Claus Ogerman (Cityscape) had written were so convoluted / detailed that he had to resort to soloing by ear.

If your ear is well-tuned, you’re always armed in terms of improvising. Especially if the chords are not given. Does an ear player play differently to a person reading chords as their primary information? I don’t think it does in a competent jazz player as they’d probably been exposed to both as to be equally as good by the time they are a decent soloist.
It’s not important as a Blues / Rock (n Roll) player though. It’s all about your ear?

 

[Ghr9204]

Whilst not advocating one in favour of the other (ear training or theory study), Michael Brecker said that the chord symbols that Claus Ogerman (Cityscape) had written were so convoluted / detailed that he had to resort to soloing by ear.

I never liked chord symbology versus simply spelling out the chords, like in The Real Book. It is simpler and more straight forward to spell them out.

If your ear is well-tuned, you’re always armed in terms of improvising. Especially if the chords are not given. Does an ear player play differently to a person reading chords as their primary information? I don’t think it does in a competent jazz player as they’d probably been exposed to both as to be equally as good by the time they are a decent soloist. It’s not important as a Blues / Rock (n Roll) player though. It’s all about your ear?

By ear, once I figure out what key the piece is in, then by ear it falls in line. This is where it helps, to learn to play in all keys. I have a friend who is an avid guitar enthusiast. However, for the past 5 years, he has been unwilling to learn to play in other keys except the easier basic ones for guitar. He has a sense of sincerity, but this is why he has never advanced as a player.

 

[Digger2054]

Speaking as a beginner who's taking an ear training class right now I think part of the issue might be that most beginners have very underdeveloped listening skills.

Good point, my teacher is very much 'hear it', he plays professionally and when he's playing doesn't have time to think mechanical way - He knows where he is starting, where he want to end up, and through years of practice can navigate his there way a multitude of ways.

He's demonstrated it for example with a diminished chord, playing 4 notes finishing on the same note, the same rhythm but different approaches, then repeating notes, then altering rhythms etc. Being able to recall that without a thought is quite fascinating.

Enough of my talking, here's a little recording of Autumn Leaves. (thanks to BOTM) I feel I'm clinging to the melody still, and listening to it back think some of the rhythms can be more interesting.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I never liked chord symbology versus simply spelling out the chords, like in The Real Book. It is simpler and more straight forward to spell them out.

I don’t understand what you mean by this - can you elaborate?

With Cityscape I guess Brecker was saying that Ogerman was detailing the movement of all parts (in the chords) with the gradual shifts between tonal centres. Or, that his chord spelling wasn’t so much what jazzers expect - ie a vertical snapshot - but more a classical-based reference to key… or that his music becomes so chromatic that using chord symbols exposes their limitations.

I have seen synopsis of Cityscape, and much of it is described via modes. I’m not sure if Ogerman thought that way or not, but I found it really hard going.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Good point, my teacher is very much 'hear it', he plays professionally and when he's playing doesn't have time to think mechanical way - He knows where he is starting, where he want to end up, and through years of practice can navigate his there way a multitude of ways.

He's demonstrated it for example with a diminished chord, playing 4 notes finishing on the same note, the same rhythm but different approaches, then repeating notes, then altering rhythms etc. Being able to recall that without a thought is quite fascinating.

Enough of my talking, here's a little recording of Autumn Leaves. (thanks to BOTM) I feel I'm clinging to the melody still, and listening to it back think some of the rhythms can be more interesting.

But what you described is mechanical. Working around a diminished chord is mechanical recall in this instance.

Knowing Dean, how he moves through a sequence will be when he is “hearing “ the changes and being guided by them. He’s also studied changes a “little bit” too over the years. So lots of mechanics embedded.

 

[Digger2054]

Ahhh you're meaning mechanical as in Muscle Memory? I was reading it as a more rigid, rule orientated way of playing.

 

[Ghr9204]

I don’t understand what you mean by this - can you elaborate?

It was a comment in passing. Don't see it as much now, but remember a time in some beginner books, even some fake books, shaping notes differently with triangles, trapezoids, etc. Denoting major chords with a triangle instead of simply spelling out the chord like C maj7 where "maj" is represented by a triangle.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Ahhh you're meaning mechanical as in Muscle Memory? I was reading it as a more rigid, rule orientated way of playing.

Ah ok

 

[Pete Effamy]

It was a comment in passing. Don't see it as much now, but remember a time in some beginner books, even some fake books, shaping notes differently with triangles, trapezoids, etc. Denoting major chords with a triangle instead of simply spelling out the chord like C maj7 where "maj" is represented by a triangle.

I’m used to the triangle and the m7b5 symbol etc.

I think Brecker was saying that the chords Ogerman wrote were so stacked that they were impossible to process quickly enough, and that possibly the sound of them were written by means of different chords symbols usually (amongst jazzer usual parlance)

 

[Pete Effamy]

I’m used to the triangle and the m7b5 symbol etc.

I think Brecker was saying that the chords Ogerman wrote were so stacked that they were impossible to process quickly enough, and that possibly the sound of them were written by means of different chords symbols usually (amongst jazzer usual parlance)

He probably denoted all the passing notes etc

 

[Colin the Bear]

It was a comment in passing. Don't see it as much now, but remember a time in some beginner books, even some fake books, shaping notes differently with triangles, trapezoids, etc. Denoting major chords with a triangle instead of simply spelling out the chord like C maj7 where "maj" is represented by a triangle.

It's just shorthand.
BiaB shorthand uses Cj for C∆.

 

[scotsman]

🙂🙂 Muscle Memory. Exactly! After listening and playing loads I eventually knew where the sounds where on my sax and what I wanted to hear in the tune I was playing. It clicked for me when I was playing "Autumn Leaves" . Got it down really well and then threw in what I wanted to say because I knew my horn. Only took me 5 years!! But what do I know huh!!
Regards..🙂🙂

 

[Colin the Bear]

There's only 12 notes. Blow one, see how you feel, blow another to lead you to the third.
Thinking that the saxophone plays one note at a time will limit you.
Strum the saxophone, like strumming a guitar. The left hand shapes that a guitarist learns are your arpeggio and scale patterns. The room is your resonator. Create your harmonies in the air. However don't forget the guitarists right hand. The phrasing and rhythms need to be interesting and sympathetic to the music.
It's not an exhibition of how fast you can play, nor is it a demonstration of how much musical theory you've absorbed. It's not about parodying some long dead genius, but referencing them can be fun.

It's creation. Composition in the fly. To touch your audience, open your heart and bare your soul, but don't forget to breathe.

And no it never clicks. It's always a struggle but sometimes it's magical.

 

[scotsman]

There's only 12 notes. Blow one, see how you feel, blow another to lead you to the third.
Thinking that the saxophone plays one note at a time will limit you.
Strum the saxophone, like strumming a guitar. The left hand shapes that a guitarist learns are your arpeggio and scale patterns. The room is your resonator. Create your harmonies in the air. However don't forget the guitarists right hand. The phrasing and rhythms need to be interesting and sympathetic to the music.
It's not an exhibition of how fast you can play, nor is it a demonstration of how much musical theory you've absorbed. It's not about parodying some long dead genius, but referencing them can be fun.

It's creation. Composition in the fly. To touch your audience, open your heart and bare your soul, but don't forget to breathe.

And no it never clicks. It's always a struggle but sometimes it's magical.

Spot on Colin!!

 

[Pete Thomas]

I think that if your melody in the improv is strong, then the right notes cf harmony are less important. Once you analyse the transcription you can find a lot of this in the great players. Analysts may bend over backwards trying to explain it, but in the end they played it because to slavishly follow chords would not have produced the same magic result.

Was it on here someone recently posted a Paul Desmond transcription full of major 7s on a minor 7 chord. In theory the major 7 is very wrong (unless uses in the context of what I call a pseudo leading note or as a passing note). The only excuse the major 7 is that it sounds great even over a minor 7.

But if you place that note effectively it is great.