PPT mouthpieces

Saxophones Grassi Saxophones

grassi-logo.jpg

Foreword

This guide was compiled mostly out of personal curiosity on these saxes and hopefully it will also serve to all those trying to identify the different models produced by this famous Italian manufacturer.

It is somewhat peculiar that although Grassi was one of the largest producers of wind instruments in Italy, very little is known about the company and its products.

There is much confusion around Grassi saxophones and it is easy to understand why:

• There are no known details about its production
• Grassi produced saxophones from the 60s to the 90s with similar model names, however with very different designs
• There seems to be no real chronology to the models
• Different models were produced around the same time which makes mapping models to serial numbers impossible
• Many years after the “Made in Italy” production ceased for good, Proel (an Italian importer of musical instruments and equipment) bought the rights to the I.M. Grassi logo and started producing saxes in the Far East with model names identical to the defunct Italian production.
An easy way to recognise these saxes is to check the logo printed on the bell: it is no hand engraved, but laser engraved and it now shows “Ida Maria Grassi – Italy” instead of the old “Ida Maria Grassi – Made in Italy” logo.

It was my intention to provide some details around the Grassi production (exact production years, rationale behind the models, etc.) and around its history, but so far found very little.

So what follows is simply a guide to recognising the different models produced in Italy. I should also add, that what follows is purely based on mechanical differences and will limit itself only to the Made in Italy production.
It would be very difficult (and maybe unfair) to give my opinion of the qualities of these instruments, as, like any other make, it depends so much on individual samples, their playing conditions, mouthpiece setup, the player, etc.
Like any other make, sound quality can vary whichever the model tested.

All the models contained in this guide have been either spotted on various internet sites, owned by SAXFORUM.IT and Café Saxophone users (a big Thank You!) and the very few owned by myself.
If I have missed any models (like the Concertino!), please get in touch and I’ll add to this document, prior photographic proof!

Please note: I have no financial gain in reporting the info and photos below, it would have been very difficult (if not impossible!) to quote every source. I have removed the last 2 sometimes 3 digits from all the serial numbers quoted to prevent this info being used by Internet scammers, however if you recognise a photo which belongs to your instrument and you feel strongly about it appearing here, please get in touch and I’ll remove it from this document.

Second hand value

I couldn’t give precise indication of the value of any instrument, it depends so much on the condition and playability of the instrument itself.
Prices vary greatly, this year (2011) I have seen them ranging from 150 euros for a “Standard” alto to 1500 euros for a “Prestige” Tenor. I suggest checking a well known online auction site and other online ads to get a rough idea of value.

Stencils

Grassi did produce saxes under other names, mostly for the US market. So far I have found the following to have very striking resemblance to the Grassi instruments: Mogar (unconfirmed), Martin Busine (unconfirmed), Majestic and “La Marque” (the La Marque saxes are Jade Rollers with the “La Marque” logon engraved just above the “I.M. Grassi” logo on the side of the bell).

Serial Numbers

Following is the only known source of serial numbers: this list will allow you to find out when your sax was produced.

The Grassi saxophone production starts in the 1960s with serial number 1000.

From 1000 to 27395 serials produced between 1960 and 1974

From 27395 to 30266 1974 / 1975
From 30267 to 34880 1976
From 34881 to 37478 1977
From 37479 to 39871 1978
From 39872 to 41835 1979
From 41836 to 43836 1980
From 43837 to 45619 1981
From 45620 to 47344 1982

Production and serial numbers become more approximate

From 47345 to 53420 1983 / 84/ 85/ 86
From 53421 to 60885 1987 /88 /89 /90
From 60886 to 65645 1990 /91 /92 /93 /94


At first I tried to keep some chronological order on the models, however I soon realised that production was very erratic: for example the “no name” models (which I will call “Standard” from now on. NB.: this is just a personal definition for the purposes of this document and one which cannot be found engraved on any Grassi sax!) start from the beginning of the saxophone production in the 60s, but they were also produced in parallel with other models until the end of the 70s.

The Models

Standard Mk I


The first model I found is in the 1600 serial numbers: note the old Grassi logo, quite different from the one we know:

grassi-2.jpg


This model has a different left hand little finger cluster keys:

grassi-3.jpg

Also you will notice that the body to bell brace is a simple ‘L’ shaped rod:

grassi-4.jpg


The rest of the keywork will remain unchanged until the 70s.
As far as I know, all Standard models had an engraved bell.

grassi-5.jpg


Sequentially, the next model I came across was in the 9000 range: you will now notice that the bell to brace “ring” has replaced the “L” shaped one, the left hand keys remain the same as the model above:




Around the 22000 serial, the bell keys on baritones move from left to the right
hand side of the bell.

Standard MK III and “Jade Rollers”

Up to this serial all models are Standard (or no name, just a serial number engraved) models. There are some minor aesthetic changes, such as the Jade coloured low C/Eb and low B/C#/Bb little finger key rollers (see photo below). Apparently even the pads on these models were in green coloured leather!

grassi-6.jpg


The G#/B/Bb/C# little finger cluster has taken a more contemporary shape:

grassi-7b.jpg


Wonderful Model

The first non Standard model I came across has been the “Wonderful Model” (28900).
This is a very interesting model and it would seem Grassi’s attempt at creating a more sophisticated instrument.

This model sports many mechanical improvements not found in previous Standard models:
• Plastic adjustable thumb hook
• High F# key on request
• F / G# / Bb with adjustable screws
• Bell keys now “balanced” with no linkage between keys and keycups.

grassi-8.jpg


This improvement (first seen on the Selmer “Balanced Action” in the 1940s) makes the action of the low notes much lighter and precise.

Another new detail is that of the bell to brace “two point” ring: the ring is no longer directly soldered to the bell.

The photo below on the left shows the “Wonderful” “two point” ring brace, the photo to the right shows the brace on a Standard model:

grassi-9.jpg


A nice addition to all the above improvements were the rectangular mother of pearl key touches (as opposed to the more traditional round pearls) offered as an option: this option cost an extra £30,000 Italian Lira in the early 70s!

grassi-10.jpg


Above you can see a beautiful example with rectangular key touches, so far I have only come across two such “custom” models (one in England and one in Italy).

[Correction: after finding yet another of these custom keywork saxes on the web, I can only conclude that the rectangular key touches were offered also on the Standard model.]

So an altogether more refined instrument exuding a more “professional” feel, not only in the slickness of the keywork but also in the rich gold lacquer finish.
I believe the “Wonderful” was only produced in alto and tenor.

Stangely, after producing the “Wonderful”, I.M. Grassi will continue to make the Standard model (as well as the Concertino, Professional and Prestige) with none of the technical improvements of the “Wonderful” until the mid 80s.
We will never know why Grassi decided to end the “Wonderful Model” production, maybe it was due to manufacturing costs or maybe the model wasn’t well received.


Concertino, Professional and Prestige


Approximately to serial number 50000, we can find the following models being produced: Standard , “Concertino”, “Professional” and “Prestige” (these last three model names are actually engraved on the sax, below the serial number).

The “Concertino” model was the student model, with bell keys on the left hand side and probably no front F key (unfortunately I have yet to find photos of this model). The “Professional” and “Prestige” look to me to have the same keywork as the Standard models.
The majority of the models above are finished in clear gold lacquer and nickel plated keywork.

Grassi also made an “Export” model (the name Export does not appear engraved on the body) which was entirely silver plated.


“Export” model alto (34000) in silver plate:

grassi-11.jpg


Model 2000

After the models mentioned above, Grassi will produce the “Model 2000” (NOT to be confused with the “Professional 2000”!). This is somewhat a transitional model, with most of the characteriscs of the older models but with some updated aesthetic touches, such as the wider more comfortable little finger key touches (the low C/Eb keys are now elongated Selmer SA80 style and no longer round).


Leader , Professional 2000 and Prestige

Around the mid 80s, Ida Maria Grassi revamps the whole production and at last focuses production on three models: “Leader”, “Professional 2000” and “Prestige” (also known as “Prestige 80”)

This last production seems to be the most consistent and finally provides a definitive range of instruments: from student “Leader” to Intermediate “Professional 2000” to professional “Prestige”.

[My personal take on this is that the “Professional 2000” was aimed more at the Jazz/Pop market, whereas the “Prestige” was aimed at the Classical market, so rather than two instruments differing in quality, I would say they provided a choice of sound. Of course, the “Prestige” was the most expensive model.]

Details of features are as follows:

Leader (alto and tenor):
• Range to top F (F# optional),
• Clear lacquer and nickel plated keys.
• Fixed thumb hook

Professional 2000 (Soprano, Alto, Tenor and Baritone):
• Range to top F (F# optional),
• Baritone range to low Bb or low A,
• Clear gold lacquer and nickel plated keys (gold lacquered keys instruments seem more popular for export models, ie outside Italy)
• Plastic, adjustable thumb hook

Prestige (Soprano, Alto and Tenor):
• Range to top F# as standard
Finishes available:
• Gold lacquered body and keys
• Gold lacquered body and silver plated keys
• Silver plated body and neck with gold lacquered keys.
• A German website mentions a gold PLATED 24K model, but I have no proof this finish was available.
• Plastic, adjustable thumb hook
• Low C#/B/Bb touch key linkage (see photo below) for faster fingering of low notes

grassi-12.jpg


All three models have “balanced” style bell keys and “Wonderful Model” body to bell “two point” ring brace (see “Wonderful Model” above for details).

These will be the last of the “Made in Italy” production. Production stopped not because of financial failure on I.M. Grassi’s part, but it is thought because of mounting pressure from the Far East on cheaper and comparable products. It is not by accident that of the other three remaining saxophone manufacturers, one stopped saxophone production to concentrate on clarinets and oboes (Orsi) and two stepped up a gear and decided to move away from mass produced products and instead focus on high end professional ranges (Borgani and Rampone & Cazzani).

In conclusion it is a shame that the first Italian (and at the time the best) maker of professional saxophones should no longer be around: their name will always remind me of my first forays into the saxophone world!

Some more serial numbers!

What follows is a list of Grassi I have come across while trawling the net. I initially thought of producing a list which would conclusively show when each model started and ended production, but what I ended up with was only a rough indication of model production around certain serial numbers… still I hope it will be useful for someone!


Alto Standard
1088

Tenor Standard
1690

Tenor Standard
9000

Baritone Standard (left hand bell keys, to low Bb)
22000

Baritone Standard (right hand bell keys, to low Bb)
22200

Jade Roller Tenor (Standard)
27600

Wonderful Model alto
28900
49700 (with F#)

Soprano Standard
29 500

Alto Standard (Silver plated, Export)
34300

Baritone Standard
33700

Jade Roller Alto (Standard)
26300
35800

Tenor Standard
39100


Professional alto
44900

Professional tenor
50400

Model 2000 baritone (to low A)
58324

Model 2000 soprano
60058

Leader alto
63000
65800

Leader Tenor
63376



Professional 2000 Tenor

50600
53900
59300

Professional 2000 Alto

53800
59200
61900
65600
68200
68300
69300

Professional 2000 Bari
62100

Prestige 80 alto
44300

Prestige 80 Tenor
51800
 
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That detail photo of the case compartment with the upside down neck and the bunch of reeds with the frayed-tipped one on top is something special. The seller is clearly not a saxophonist or he'd know that that view of the neck is about as useful as tits on a bull.

in fact I'd wager that he's either a painter or an art historian because the resemblance to an 19th century trompe l'oeil still-life paintings with a musical instrument in them is striking. The green felt background with items carefully juxtaposed on it with the upside down neck in that angular placement meant to lead the eye towards the center of the painting and normally taken by a pipe is too uncanny to be pure chance.

Whoever buys the sax will be purchasing a work of art at the same time. :rolleyes::D

John-Frederick-Peto-Still-Life-Book-and-Mug.JPG
jade painting.jpeg
 
Well, the sax closed at 206 pounds (285€), which shows you how much in demand these saxes aren't.

Frankly, if I had seen this yesterday and was less cautious than I am at the moment, I would have been on it like a dog on a bone. I mean, what non-Chinese tenor sax can you get for under 300€??

Of course there is not one bit of detailed info in the ad about the playing condition of the horn or the state of the pads, etc. The only thing it says is "All is in good working order" which is the same as saying nothing at all IMO. So if i had wanted to get serious about this sax I would have had to message the seller to get answers to specific questions before making a decision. The price may be low but if this is what the market values these saxes at and you have to pay a tech that much more again to repad this to make it play, it would have to be for its sound and playability and not for financial reasons.
 
Pete you beat me to it while I left my post sit to go eat lunch. I got peckish before pressing the button to post it and upon doing it now that I am stuffed and coffeed up I see that you stated the reality of it too.

I find it a bit sad that a saxophone this good gets so little respect that people will go and buy any old Chinese sax for more and turn their noses up at this in the process. Again, it's casting pearls before swine.....so to speak.

I was up at Sax-On on Friday....you know, the place I took you.....and Miguel showed me that the lower priced Yamahas are now made in Indonesia. Stamped right on the back of the bell as plain as day. I declined to handle the thing for fear that it might fall apart in my hands. He said that someone will probably be making name brand saxes in India pretty soon.

:verysad
 
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It means: "I tried moving the valve things and they all seemed to moved and down OK."

Yep, ya got that right. And he didn't even say anything like "it doesn't have and dinks or dints [sic] in the metal".

Speaking of valves I just bought a Cornet on Ebay really cheap and while I was following a couple there was one where the seller said "The three valves do move slowly and I blew on it and it does play....I am not a musician and not a music instrument expert."

Translated that means, "The pistons are gummed up and will probably need an overhaul with new springs. But it does play as is, to the extent that I can play, which is not at all other than to make awful farting sounds come out the megaphone part."
 
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Ahhh, but there`s a difference between Undervalued in musical instrument terms and Undervalued in monetary terms ...... just because an instrument falls into the former category doesn`t automatically make it fall into the latter also, and in fact rarely if ever at all in the UK unless it`s ludicrously cheap ............

There are horns which fall into the former category but go as far as to be vastly overvalued in the latter .. (prime example being the Cannonball Gerald Albright Blingathon) -
 
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I love my The Martin Tenor made in 1945 and don't really care what it is worth monetarily because I won't ever sell it. I suppose for the benefit of my heirs it would be great if it was worth what a Selmer is, but in terms of how it sounds and plays that is not really pertinent to anything for me.
 
Here's another one:
2010-11-20 00.01.27 comp.jpg

2010-11-20 00.01.16 comp.jpg

2010-11-20 00.01.02 comp.jpg
Anyone know what this is?
It's got this lot written on it:
IDA MARIA GRASSI number 29363Trademake IT 17.433C/70 USA 358.195
It's probably for sale. I've not seen it yet so I've no idea about state of pads, etc. It's been in a loft for a couple of years.
 
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