Theory & Impro b13 and Charlie Parker

[cappers]

A video short by Jay Metcalf (Bettersax) popped up on my feed about a common lick CP used over a 2-5 progression.
Jay mentions that the key note in the phrase is the B flat leading to F# of D7 after the descending Am7. He calls this a b13.
I thought I was beginning to get some theory under my belt but this eludes me.
B is the 6th of D7 so why isn't it b6-3-2-b2 rather than b13-3-2-b2?
Thank you.

 

[JSL]

But then very quickly goes on to show a B min7b5 in the key of C. Presumably though he is purely thinking of it as part of secondary dominant to the Am which is fair enough.

I don't know the context (haven't watch the video yet), but just taking a B min7b5 chord, couldn't it also be the III min7b5 in the key of G in a IIImin-VI7-IImin-V7-I progression?

 

[Pete Thomas]

couldn't it also be the III min7b5 in the key of G in a IIImin-VI7-IImin-V7-I progression?

Yes BØ7 E7 Am7 D7 G. In the video though he is talking about it in C (There Will Never Be Another You)

 

[JSL]

Yes BØ7 E7 Am7 D7 G. In the video though he is talking about it in C (There Will Never Be Another You)

Thanks Pete. Yeah, I should have watched the video before commenting. I'll give it a watch later today (more pressing things to do right now).

 

[skeller047]

Regarding the vii chord - I actually agree with the video. Remember he’s not talking about 7th chords, he’s talking about triads. The bare diminished triad of the vii chord is extremely rare.

And yes it’s a simplistic viewpoint. But I also thought it was a straightforward and kind of unique way to organize harmonic practice.

 

[JSL]

I just watched the video that @skeller047 posted. Very interesting. Especially the 'parallel minor' part. I'll have to think about it to fully process it, but I do get the overall idea. Thanks for posting that, Steve.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Jay mentions that the key note in the phrase is the B flat leading to F# of D7 after the descending Am7. He calls this a b13

Do you have a link to the original video and/or the original Charlie Parker track?

 

[Pete Thomas]

The bare diminished triad of the vii chord is extremely rare.

But remember he’s talking about jazz theory: any bare diminished triad is extremely rare.

I do understand educators wanting to ignore the VII chord as it makes an otherwise simple concept (learning chord types on scale degrees) into something more complex. My solution was to just say as a beginner you can ignore this chord for now,

 

[cappers]

Do you have a link to the original video and/or the original Charlie Parker track?

@Pete Thomas
This is Jay's video:

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/SxA1C5ac1n8

 

[Pete Thomas]

@Pete Thomas
This is Jay's video:

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/SxA1C5ac1n8

Thanks. I was hoping it would link to an exact example of Bird playing the lick so I could confirm a suspicion I have that it's very possible Bird himself was not thinking b13, but rather augmented 5th. Not that he may have been actively thinking "ooh, I know what, I'll play a b13." But I know that I have often played that note while thinking that I would substitute an augmented chord rather than thinking b13. Not that there is any way I am comparing myself to one of the greatest masters of bebop and jazz.

It may be different if the phrase was actually using the melodic inferences of a b13 (or if there was something in the accompaniment that was definitely a b13) but in this case for me, the inference is that he is ending on the A of the A m7, and then sharpening the A. Hence I would be thinking A# either as the natural way to play and think that lick (or similar).

It may sound a bit pedantic, and I could be barking up the wrong tree (or shrub) but I think it's worth considering rather than assuming the more complex analysis.

 

[mrblackbat]

very possible Bird himself was not thinking b13, but rather augmented 5th. Not that he may have been actively thinking "ooh, I know what, I'll play a b13." But I know that I have often played that note while thinking that I would substitute an augmented chord rather than thinking b13. Not that there is any way I am comparing myself to one of the greatest masters of bebop and jazz.

He was probably just thinking the line he was playing: be-de-be-de-be-de-be-de-beeeee

 

[JSL]

I was hoping it would link to an exact example of Bird playing the lick so I could confirm a suspicion I have that it's very possible Bird himself was not thinking b13, but rather augmented 5th.

Or maybe he just liked the sound of that min 6 interval (Bb (A#) - F#) leading up to the 3rd of D7. IOW, he thought it made the phrase sound pretty cool. And it does.

 

[mrblackbat]

Or maybe he just liked the sound of that min 6 interval (Bb (A#) - F#) leading up to the 3rd of D7. IOW, he thought it made the phrase sound pretty cool. And it does.

And even if that's what he though, I bet whilst he was playing he wasn't thinking "hey a minor 6 interval sounds cool" I bet he was just singing it.

 

[Pete Thomas]

And even if that's what he thought, I bet whilst he was playing he wasn't thinking "hey a minor 6 interval sounds cool" I bet he was just singing it.

Yes I imagine many great improvisers are not thinking about music theory while playing. Just a flow of inspired melodic impro. Like where the melody has come from and where it’s going (EDIT: and how it interacts with the other instruments). Maybe sometimes visualising something. The music theory part of the thought process is probably quite small if at all. Especially if it’s like in this case a well used lick that can become an automatic unconscious (subconscious?) part of the process.

 

[mrblackbat]

Yes the music theory part is important for after the event understanding, and then having something to clue you in to what to practise to really drill the sounds you like in.

So, for example, with the video here, saying this is a typical ii-Vb13 line that sounds pretty cool because that flat 13 jumping up to the third of the chord allows you to sit and realise what that is, what the sound is, give it a name, and then apply it all over the place as you like.

But then, as my teacher Iain Dixon has said many times, and Parker himself said; forget about all that stuff and play.

 

[JSL]

And even if that's what he though, I bet whilst he was playing he wasn't thinking "hey a minor 6 interval sounds cool" I bet he was just singing it.

Absolutely. I don't really think many, if any, musicians are thinking through the theory while improvising. For one thing, you can't really think it all out while doing it. You can think it out ahead of time in order to figure out what's happening, and then experiment with a given phrase in the practice room, embellish it, move it through different keys, etc. But once it's internalized, and likely only then, you simply hear it and play it at the appropriate time during a solo. And that minor 6 interval, or any other interval (maj 3rd, tritone, 5th, etc.) becomes a sound that you can instantly access and play as desired.

Studying the theory is simply a way to understand what's going on and, to an extent, why it will sound good or will 'work'.

 

[wakyct]

Studying the theory is simply a way to understand what's going on and, to an extent, why it will sound good or will 'work'.

I think of it as like being given a box of pigments and being told to mix all the colors you want to use. With no training yes you will mix some colors, but it's going to take a lot longer than if you understand how to mix the pigments to get the color you want. And I think included in that is a healthy amount of experimentation.