Theory & Impro b13 and Charlie Parker

[cappers]

A video short by Jay Metcalf (Bettersax) popped up on my feed about a common lick CP used over a 2-5 progression.
Jay mentions that the key note in the phrase is the B flat leading to F# of D7 after the descending Am7. He calls this a b13.
I thought I was beginning to get some theory under my belt but this eludes me.
B is the 6th of D7 so why isn't it b6-3-2-b2 rather than b13-3-2-b2?
Thank you.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

D, F#, A, C, E, G, and B
This might be a D13. 🧐

 

[cappers]

Thanks @PiccoloPirate I can see it now.
Before you replied I wrote out the above and can see why B is 13 hence Jay calling it b13 in this case Bb.
I stupidly wondered why it isn't called a b6 as B is the 6th of Dmaj but as its a D7 chord it's a flattened extension DF#ACEGB.

D13 makes sense even though it's marked D7. Is this CP doing his own thing over the set chord change?

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Your last band recording, is getting to be a bit more musical, but ....
Scales, up and down, single tongue and legato, then a couple of tunes, played straight, would provide a better glimpse of your playing.
Just you, nothing else. 🎯

 

[wakyct]

B is the 6th of D7 so why isn't it b6-3-2-b2 rather than b13-3-2-b2?

I've been confused by this as well, but I think the basic idea is that chords are made up of thirds so we use the higher numbers for the extensions, and the higher number makes it clear that it's different than a regular chord tone.

 

[Zasterz]

6ths and 13ths are the same thing. Basically, the names are interchangeable between 2 4 6 and 9 11 13. You don’t need to overthink it beyond that or look for an underlying logic to why you see it one way or the other (like @wakyct’s comment above) because chord-naming conventions aren’t standardized in any way. People use both ways of referring to those notes and you should get used to seeing it either way.

For example:

B is the 6th of D7 so why isn't it b6-3-2-b2 rather than b13-3-2-b2?

You might encounter this also as
b6-3-9-b9
or
b13-3-9-b9

It would be odd to see
b6-3-2-b9
But it someone wrote a chart like that or maybe just asked you to add a b9 onto a chord with a 2 already in the score, you should know what they mean.

 

[cappers]

Weird I couldn't see it initially
Confused thinking re 2-b9; 9-b9 makes more sense.
Thanks all.

 

[Zasterz]

Confused thinking re 2-b9; 9-b9 makes more sense.

The second note is the same as the 9th note. Like I said, it would be pretty unusual for someone to write both 2 and b9. But what if the chord symbol on the chart said “D7 add2” and then, in rehearsal, the director said “let’s add a b9 to that.” You want to immediately know what is meant and not be quibbling with “but it says 2 here!” or trying to divine some greater intent to it. These are all just interchangeable ways of referring to the same note, just like how a person can be Robert or Bob or Bobby.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Jay mentions that the key note in the phrase is the B flat leading to F# of D7

It’s not actually leading though, notes usually lead by a semitone (often over a cadence.).

6ths and 13ths are the same thing

I don’t think of them the same. A 13th has a (flat) 7th, a 6th does not.

 

[Zasterz]

I don’t think of them the same. A 13th has a (flat) 7th, a 6th does not.

My comment you quoted wasn’t referring to naming full chord voicings. It was about referring to single notes. If someone tells you to play the b13 note it’s the same thing as telling you to play the b6 note. If they said “play the b13” on a chord without a 7th, would you say “I can’t because the chord has no 7th”? I’m pretty sure not! 😄

 

[Colin the Bear]

A six in a run has a different "flavour" to a thirteen. imo

Six is in the mix, thirteen is the icing on top.

I went through a phase of being fascinated by 69 chords. Sorry. Random thought.

The thing to remember with musical numbers is that it's not maths.
6 + 8 = 14 maths. 6 + 8 = 13 music.

Although thinking about it, it might be base eight. My brain hurts now. 😵‍💫

 

[Zasterz]

Another important thing that beginners especially may not be aware of is that often when you encounter a chart with extended chord voicings (higher than 7) it’s because that note (the 9th or the 13th, for example) is occurring in the melody in that measure.

Here for example are two lines from “I Got Rhythm” (Standards Real Book, Sher):

You are not being asked to play two different Cm chords here. You can play the same chord both times. The actual harmony is identical at these points. You can play the 9 (D) on either chord, or not play it at all on either chord. The chart is merely naming the chord based on the information contained in the basic melody and harmony. (Notice how that melody D also turns the following F7 into an F13. The composer wasn’t asking for a fancier chord there, you can still just play an F7 if you want.)

You will also likely play a b7 on both Cm chords even though the first one doesn’t specify any 7. You can think of the chord symbol as merely the most safe notes that you can play. Over time, your ear and increased knowledge of scales etc will help you choose which notes you like to add.

 

[skeller047]

6ths and 13ths are the same thing. Basically, the names are interchangeable between 2 4 6 and 9 11 13. You don’t need to overthink it beyond that or look for an underlying logic to why you see it one way or the other (like @wakyct’s comment above) because chord-naming conventions aren’t standardized in any way. People use both ways of referring to those notes and you should get used to seeing it either way.

This is not quite true. 6 and 13 are the same NOTE, but in chord notation D13 implies the presence of the flat 7th, whereas D6 implies the lack of a 7th, or perhaps the existence of a major 7th. So in discussing something to do with a D7(b13), it’s natural to refer to the note as the 13th.

I admit this is a little pedantic, but it’s easy to see why Jay Metcalf would call that note the b13.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Wouldn't it be easier to say that 6's are labelled such when in major and minor chords, and 13's when we're in dominant chord territory ?
Is it not the same for 2nd's in major - the 9th can occur too -: maj 9 and also m9. The 2 in a major chord is the Steely Dan "Mu" chord isn't it ? - The 2nd being nestled in between the root and major 3rd giving a C - D - E cluster.

 

[lydian]

This is not quite true. 6 and 13 are the same NOTE, but in chord notation D13 implies the presence of the flat 7th, whereas D6 implies the lack of a 7th, or perhaps the existence of a major 7th. So in discussing something to do with a D7(b13), it’s natural to refer to the note as the 13th.

I admit this is a little pedantic, but it’s easy to see why Jay Metcalf would call that note the b13.

Exactly. By convention, 7th chords don't have 6ths, they have 13ths. Similar story for 2nds. If a chord has a 3rd (i.e., it's not a sus chord), it's going to have 9ths, not 2nds. 6ths and 2nds imply that the 7th and 3rds aren't in the chord respectively. So more accurate to use 13 and 9.

@cappers, generally speaking, when talking about harmony, people usually talk in terms of uppper extensions (9, 11, 13) rather than scale degrees (2, 4, 6). That's just how it is even though it's the same notes either way. I'm actually surprised Jay use b2 and 2 rather than b9 and 9. So even he mixes it up a little. Bottom line, as long a you understand both, you're fine.

 

[Zasterz]

This is not quite true. 6 and 13 are the same NOTE, but in chord notation D13 implies the presence of the flat 7th, whereas D6 implies the lack of a 7th, or perhaps the existence of a major 7th. So in discussing something to do with a D7(b13), it’s natural to refer to the note as the 13th.

I admit this is a little pedantic, but it’s easy to see why Jay Metcalf would call that note the b13.

I already responded to Pete on this- my comment which you quoted was about single note 6ths and 13ths not chord-notation.

 

[cappers]

Exactly. By convention, 7th chords don't have 6ths, they have 13ths. Similar story for 2nds. If a chord has a 3rd (i.e., it's not a sus chord), it's going to have 9ths, not 2nds. 6ths and 2nds imply that the 7th and 3rds aren't in the chord respectively. So more accurate to use 13 and 9.

Thank you @lydian that is helpful.

@cappers, generally speaking, when talking about harmony, people usually talk in terms of uppper extensions (9, 11, 13) rather than scale degrees (2, 4, 6). That's just how it is even though it's the same notes either way. I'm actually surprised Jay use b2 and 2 rather than b9 and 9. So even he mixes it up a little. Bottom line, as long a you understand both, you're fine.

To be fair, Jay only mentioned the importance of the b13.
It was me who referred to the line as b13-3-2-b2 instead of b13-3-9-b9.

A lot clearer now.

 

[lydian]

One more thing. Unless I'm banging out huge chords on a piano, what goes on inside my brain when I see 9, 11 and 13 is actually 2, 4 and 6 or intervals, like one step up from root, one half step up from 3rd, etc. Others may think differently. No matter what the theory says, do whatever works best for you to understand the concept.

 

[progger]

I'm all about some healthy chord tone discussion... but we always need to take into account that these things can be somewhat regional, colloquial, and dependent on whatever scene or subculture you're in. These things haven't been codified to the extent of the common practice music of a European conservatory.

The Aebersold nomenclature works well for me, probably largely because one of my beloved teachers, Dan Haerle, helped to develop it (or at least I heavily suspect he did, he and Aebersold were lifelong friends). Extensions can certainly exist in qualities other than dominant, although the way they behave in practice usually requires some alteration... Most commonly, in any chord with a major 3, we usually like to raise the 11 by a half-step, except for sus4 candidates. With a minor chord, we usually like a major 6 or 13 instead of what we would expect, a minor 6 or 13. So our "default" fully extended chords would sound something like this:

Major 13: 1, maj3, 5, maj7, 9, #11, maj13 (corresponds to the Lydian sound)

Minor 13: 1, min3, 5, min7, 9, 11, maj13 (corresponds to the Dorian sound)

Dominant 13: 1, maj3, 5, min7, 9, #11, maj13 (corresponds to the Lydian Dominant sound) [corrected, thanks cappers!]

There are, of course, countless exceptions, alterations, diversions, and developments from these, but I find this framework to be a useful place to start in jazz. The "b13" in question here is actually usually a "b9" in practice, since we'd probably be referring to the pitch in relation to the chord at hand, and in bebop we frequently see this kind of movement on a V7(b9) chord. And not just bebop, of course, we hear it in minor-key western music going back to Bach and earlier.

In terms of improvising and composing, the extensions can usually simply be thought of as their corresponding pitch in the lower octave (2, 4, 6), for practical purposes. The extension numbers are good to be aware of in terms of how these notes would be stacked by default in tertian chord voicing.

Apologies for the long-winded and only questionably useful post, but I could geek out about this stuff all day... loved it since I was a teenager, for some reason.

 

[Zasterz]

If a chord has a 3rd (i.e., it's not a sus chord), it's going to have 9ths, not 2nds.

Add2 chords are commonplace and include the third (1 2 3 5). Ditto with Add4 (1 3 4 5).