Saxophones A Test - How Lacquer Affects Sound

[skeller047]

Jay Metcalf (BetterSax) put the 3 available finishes on his Session Alto to the test. Not sure if this breaks new ground, but it sure is interesting.

View: https://youtu.be/MOds-U-Cxdw

 

[Dr G]

Compare any three saxes. Do they all sound the same?

Find one that sounds distinctive - good or bad, and swap necks. In my experience of trying similar horns, the characteristic tone often follows the neck.

 

[PigSquealer]

Fascinating results.

 

[turf3]

Compare any three saxes. Do they all sound the same?

Find one that sounds distinctive - good or bad, and swap necks. In my experience of trying similar horns, the characteristic tone often follows the neck.

Which makes a lot of sense.

People who think the bow, or the bell diameter, has an effect on tone - well, it might, but only on the notes at or below the feature. Whereas the neck is in play for every note on the horn.

 

[Targa]

What if they did the same tests with a different make, would the results be the same?

 

[turf3]

Is there a summary of the data?

Are the results significantly different than would be achieved by chance? For example, a large enough sample where there is no perceivable difference, would yield "brightest sound" 33% finish A, 33% finish B, 33% finish C. Now you know that you're almost certainly not going to get 33 A/33B/33C results, even if there is no real difference - just as you know that if you toss a coin 100 times it's unlikely that you'll get exactly 50 heads. There are statistical methods, well established, to determine whether a result is likely to be the result of chance (random variation) or systematic factors. It's been a while since I did this kind of analysis but if the data are presented, I bet someone on this forum can do the statistics.

Of course, one pc. of each is hardly a useful sample size...

 

[turf3]

OK, here's a summary of the data on two dimensions ("dark sound" and "bright sound"). There's an underlying assumption that these are opposites, which may or may not be the case. The questions are "which of the three had the brightest/darkest sound".

A: brightest 28.3%, darkest 24.5%
B: brightest 35.8%, darkest 22.6%
C: brightest 18.9%, darkest 32.1%

Just eyeballing it I'd suspect that A and B are essentially the same, if you ran the stats. Eyeballing it I'd suspect there may be a statistical significance to the difference of A&B versus C.

Of course now he needs to repeat this with three horns that have the identical finish. That will assess how much natural variation there is, horn to horn, with the variable "finish" held constant. Because what's being evaluated here is three SAXOPHONES, each with a different finish. Not the finishes by themselves, because there's no practical way to do that.

So the baseline, which should have been done to start with, is to determine how much variation exists amongst supposedly identical individuals with the same finish applied.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Hey-ho - A.N.Other blindfold lacquer/finish test.

I cannot even begin to estimate how many bog-standard Yamaha 200 series flutes I've worked on down the years.
Yamaha has the most consistent manufacturing process of any woodwind maker - and yet I'm still able to rank a flute in the range of 'Monday morning' (best) to 'Friday afternoon' (worst) - though all will be within an acceptable range.

So how does this happen? A silver-plated nickel-silver body built with one of the most consistent manufacturing processes in the industry - and yet some examples are merely adequate and some are 'Never sell this flute!'.
And the answer is boringly simple; because they're not identical.

I wrote about all this stuff years ago in my Myths And Materials article - but the following quote from it rather fits the bill:

"...talking about the tonal qualities of a coat of silver plate: "This additional weight does not actually make the tone darker but adds brilliance and projection" - so extra weight makes it brighter and louder, yes? Same manufacturer - "The absence of lacquer and/or plating allows the saxophone to vibrate more freely and overall sounds brighter and louder". If that's confusing enough, try this, from the same source; "The addition of two layers of plating creates a very dark, lush and warm tone"."

It's all just tiresome, dated marketing BS.
Choose a finish that appeals to you; test a number of examples; buy the one that speaks to you; go home - be happy; never worry about it again.

 

[mizmar]

If I was making a promo video to sell kit, I'd be - maybe subconsciously - inclined to include a contentious talking point..
Views means points.
And what do points mean?
Points mean prizes!

 

[PigSquealer]

Take nine with no finish and see if they play the same. Then finish them the three different ways. Compare the results.
I hear adding pork grease around the bell will produce a big fat sound.

 

[LostCircuits]

Ok, here is the elephant in the room. Take three other samples of the same finish and repeat the test. Is the outcome going to be the same?

 

[Woodpad]

Just as it's impossible to cross a river twice in the same way, it's is impossible to make two identical saxophones. The only way to get meaningful results is to test really large numbers. After that you may get results as: there is a 75% chance that a certain change affects the sound. This will directly kill the enthusiasm of marketing.

And if you test all saxophones with the same crook? Doesn't help much. All saxophones leak, but no leak pattern is identical. Therefore you have to test large numbers. Same applies for padded flutes and clarinets.

 

[PigSquealer]

Ford heavily tests all their vehicles. Right up to the release of the next years model.

What a great marketing strategy this is. Get players to play three different finishers of the product. See if they sound or feel differently. Each has appeal to jazz, rock or classical styles.

 

[Targa]

Ford didn’t test the two I bought, both had several faults when new.

 

[PigSquealer]

Ford didn’t test the two I bought, both had several faults when new.

They didn’t test the one I bought either, so I tested it for four years ten months & 48,000 miles. During the test I reported back to warranty service 71 times. 🍋🍋🍋🍋 I filed a lemon claim and got back 100% of my purchase price. My testing service fee.

 

[Colin the Bear]

All these subtle differences can be mitigated by a skilled Hatter. For a formal sound a Homburg or Bowler. For the old fashioned sound a Boater. For the Yorkshire sound, a flat cap and Whippet preceded by a meal of tripe. Ah yes tripe. We found a common theme.

 

[Targa]

All these subtle differences can be mitigated by a skilled Hatter. For a formal sound a Homburg or Bowler. For the old fashioned sound a Boater. For the Yorkshire sound, a flat cap and Whippet preceded by a meal of tripe. Ah yes tripe. We found a common theme.

Perhaps the 10/6 top hat of the Mad Hatter.

 

[Dr G]

Ok, here is the elephant in the room. Take three other samples of the same finish and repeat the test. Is the outcome going to be the same?

Yes. At least one will be different from the others.

Repeat the test in a shoe store if you want more results for the same number of tests.

 

[jazzdoh]

These questions relating to does finish change the sound have been around for decades, and there has never been a definitive answer, try 10 different saxes of the same brand, model and finish and they will be different, manufacturers make different finishes to appeal to different customers in the same way cars are made in different colours.
So which colour car is the fastest, its got to be Red. 🙂

 

[PigSquealer]

Repeat the test in a shoe store if you want more results for the same number of tests.

What type of shoes ? Women’s high heel shoes may sound thin. Men’s leather dress shoes, dunno 🤷‍♂️
Sportswear could be the best option. Maybe the “all terrain” section.