Saxophones Vito models and parts

[ghostler]

I see the unusual aspects you point out, yeah some interesting mix-match details on that one....

Honestly cannot say I have ever seen a VITO branded, Yama-era horn which actually was stamped "USA" on it.....

I've now been able to get a better mental picture in my mind how Le Blanc USA did these Vitos. The confusing part was also coming up with a true Yamaha YAS-23 in of all things, a Vito case on EBay. Some did a bit of post manufacturing creative mixing and matching. (Case went bad and got a got Vito one?)

I gather that Yamaha continued with the molded rounded long edges case with ends wrapped with the aluminum edge guards with inset upholstery. My YAS-61 was that way.

Le Blanc used the same sewn plastic edge upholstered plywood square edged case for both the Yamaha Vitos and Jupiter Vitos.

My tenor appears to be possibly and earlier Jupiter Vito as it came with a brown case instead of the later black case. But compartment wise, the inside is shaped like the Yamaha case, so if the exterior is not shown, resembles Yamaha.

Thus far it seems the Yamaha Vitos on EBay and Reverb are more plentious than the Jupiter ones.

As the mystery unravels, those who stumble upon a Vito sax in good condition, in reality have a good intermediate, and can obtain them at a lesser cost. I know I did.

 

[Woodpad]

I see the unusual aspects you point out, yeah some interesting mix-match details on that one....

Honestly cannot say I have ever seen a VITO branded, Yama-era horn which actually was stamped "USA" on it.....

For me the logic behind the Vito model identification is like rule number one of French grammar : Every rule must have at least one exeption. The exeption for this rule is rule number one.

 

[Woodpad]

7140 pictures of left pinky tableau and octave mechanism.

 

[turf3]

I see the unusual aspects you point out, yeah some interesting mix-match details on that one....

Honestly cannot say I have ever seen a VITO branded, Yama-era horn which actually was stamped "USA" on it.....

Well, if the Yamaha USA assembly plant got an order from LeBlanc for 150 altos and 100 tenors to the Vito spec, do you think they'd have turned it down, or do you think they'd have had the spec FAXed to them from Japan along with airfreighting some Vito-spec parts from the Japan factory?

And they stamped 'em USA.

Remember, these people were running a FACTORY, to make products and sell them at a profit. They were not concerned about what someone 45 or 50 years later would try to figure out about the exact provenance of a basic,, mass produced, student instrument. We're not talking about a lost Van Gogh here.

 

[Woodpad]

Well, if the Yamaha USA assembly plant got an order from LeBlanc for 150 altos and 100 tenors to the Vito spec, do you think they'd have turned it down, or do you think they'd have had the spec FAXed to them from Japan along with airfreighting some Vito-spec parts from the Japan factory?

Not a problem for the logistics of the Yamaha spare part department.

 

[ghostler]

these people were running a FACTORY, to make products and sell them at a profit. They were not concerned about what someone 45 or 50 years later would try to figure out about the exact provenance of a basic, mass produced, student instrument.

Case in point,

I bidded on a 1990 Dodge D150 pickup truck in 1993 at a US gov. fleet vehicle auto auction in Albuquerque. It was one of the few where private citizens could bid along side car dealers. When I won the bid at $6,600, over time learned a few things about this model of truck.

It had parts from the earlier 1989 truck. When I bought parts to replace worn, the local parts jobbers (Carquest, NAPA, dealer, etc.) did not have the matching part listed for 1990's, but a match was found with the earlier year. It even had the front plastic cosmetic radiator grill of the 1989 model, not the 1990 model.

In this case, the Chrysler Corporation had won the competitive bid to provide the gov with new pickup trucks with the lowest bid. Thus they used up all the left over 1989 parts to build these trucks. Did the gov care? No, because the trucks provided the same service life and reliability with these earlier parts, but it helped Chrysler underbid their competitors.

A state puts out a competitive solicitation for say, 2,000 altos, 1,000 tenors, 400 baris to the manufacturers. Le Blanc USA wins the bid. Lacking parts, they contact Yamaha, who ships them Le Blanc customised parts, but fill the shortages with YAS-23 parts. Ran short on Le Blanc cases. No problem, on the Yamaha case without label, slap on a Le Blanc Vito one. The state's public school system doesn't care, they now have new loaner instruments for the kids and the older ones are auctioned off.

Also, a repair tech is fixing a Yamaha. It has a damaged, dented pad guard. He goes to his parts instruments, finds a matching Vito of same series, puts it on. Has a slightly different appearance, but customer doesn't care (except on the Internet ), has restored cosmetic appearance to his Yamaha. - Or, vice versa. (These are "beginner" instruments, not a YTS-62. 😉 )

@PigSquealer , sound right? 😉

 

[PigSquealer]

They were running a factory. If they bid that kind of volume. The estimating / production department would normally plan with securing costs of materials, parts and production time well in advance. Working from the buyers delivery date and approximate date IF the contract is awarded. This could be a bid a year in advance.
Department’s budget needs. This goes through review to qualify the need. If passed. Then out to bid. Bid(s) secured. Then submitted to the annual budget of all state needs for review. And then……and then…and….

Budgets are usually wrapped up by September/ October for the following year.

It’s not like you pick up the phone and order 3400 instruments and expect them by the end of the month. That’s an +/- $8.5 million dollar order in today’s market.
Yes, some parts can be from outsourcing / jobbers. I don’t know about Vito.

 

[ghostler]

I was talking in simplistic terms, this is the Café. 😉

Why I now have an empty briefcase and a room full of musical instruments.

 

[JayeNM]

Well, if the Yamaha USA assembly plant got an order from LeBlanc for 150 altos and 100 tenors to the Vito spec, do you think they'd have turned it down, or do you think they'd have had the spec FAXed to them from Japan along with airfreighting some Vito-spec parts from the Japan factory?

And they stamped 'em USA.

Remember, these people were running a FACTORY, to make products and sell them at a profit. They were not concerned about what someone 45 or 50 years later would try to figure out about the exact provenance of a basic,, mass produced, student instrument. We're not talking about a lost Van Gogh here.

???

My comment was basically " I can't say I have ever seen a Vito 23 actually stamped USA "

Everything you note (speculate really) may well be true...that doesn't change the fact that I, after having refurbed around 150 Vito 21 and 23's, cannot recall ever seeing one stamped USA....

Although FWIW as all this is is a run of mill 23 with a few small mix-match details, your theory might explain it...
😎

 

[ghostler]

@Woodpad lives in the Netherlands. Could it be that to comply with European standards of the time, required these saxes imported to Europe be stamped USA? In US, there would be no need for this stamp and it is an extra step, which incures cost. Since these were "beginner" horns, perhaps explains why Vitos in US repair would not have the stamp?

 

[Woodpad]

@Woodpad lives in the Netherlands. Could it be that to comply with European standards of the time, required these saxes imported to Europe be stamped USA? In US, there would be no need for this stamp and it is an extra step, which incures cost. Since these were "beginner" horns, perhaps explains why Vitos in US repair would not have the stamp?

Most US saxophones came to the Netherlands between 1975 and 1990 when several traders bought 2hand saxophones in the US and send them to the Netherlands by ship. No stamp required. I think there was a rule in the UK to mark instruments not made in the UK. Some where marked foreign.

 

[ghostler]

Most US saxophones came to the Netherlands between 1975 and 1990 when several traders bought 2hand saxophones in the US and send them to the Netherlands by ship. No stamp required. I think there was a rule in the UK to mark instruments not made in the UK. Some where marked foreign.

It is interesting that some traders would embark on this type of venture. I guess they saw a good opportunity to fill a gap with the used instrument market to make a profit. And, the NL community wanted affordable intermediate quality saxes to learn music on.

I would think the goal with the Café Sax community here, is to help one to discern the stencil origin, so they can know what they are to look for to save money, or, to have confidence that perhaps the Vito they have is worth keeping repaired, in good order for playing.

Then, the relative Country of Origin stamp becomes a mute point due to inconsistencies with some stamped and some unstamped. Based on information thus far, my Vito Tenor 7133T (Jupiter) is Taiwan manufactured but has no Taiwan stamped on it, and hails from the early 1990's.

This I thank @JayeNM and others for contributing information to identify its specifics.

 

[skeller047]

As the mystery unravels, those who stumble upon a Vito sax in good condition, in reality have a good intermediate, and can obtain them at a lesser cost.

I don’t think it’s that much of a mystery. It’s known which saxophone manufacturers Vito (LeBlanc) used for stencils, and it’s also known that a lot of them were assembled in the US (to avoid import duties on musical instruments - parts aren’t taxed the same way, if at all). All that remains is to identify which of the four sources made a particular horn (Beaugnier, Yamaha, Yanagisawa or Jupiter/KHS). Which is easily done by just looking at it. Model numbers may or may not tell you the truth.

Regarding “intermediate”, if the horn is a Beaugnier or Yanagisawa (Vito VSP models), then these are truly professional level horns. The Yamahas and Jupiters are indeed “second shelf” instruments, but are still excellent. Vito don’t get no respect in the marketplace.

 

[ghostler]

Vito don’t get no respect in the marketplace.

This is what makes them one of the best bargains, particularly if one is not interested in resale value.

I like my Vito by Jupiter, nothing else matters.

 

[Woodpad]

I don’t think it’s that much of a mystery. It’s known which saxophone manufacturers Vito (LeBlanc) used for stencils, and it’s also known that a lot of them were assembled in the US (to avoid import duties on musical instruments - parts aren’t taxed the same way, if at all). All that remains is to identify which of the four sources made a particular horn (Beaugnier, Yamaha, Yanagisawa or Jupiter/KHS). Which is easily done by just looking at it. Model numbers may or may not tell you the truth.

Regarding “intermediate”, if the horn is a Beaugnier or Yanagisawa (Vito VSP models), then these are truly professional level horns. The Yamahas and Jupiters are indeed “second shelf” instruments, but are still excellent. Vito don’t get no respect in the marketplace.

I have never seen them but there is a claim that Holton made the first Vito's. Possibly one of the factories bought by Holton as they had a never make a Holton stencil policy.

From Wiki: Leblanc (musical instrument manufacturier);

After briefly sourcing its Vito saxophones from Holton, Leblanc imported Beaugnier saxophone parts to be assembled in Kenosha and sold under the Vito brand.

 

[turf3]

Keep in mind that Holton is (was) a brand owned by LeBlanc, which also owns the Vito brand.

I believe that Vito (named after Vito Pascucci, a VP at LeBlanc, was always a brand of the LeBlanc corporation. Holton was, of course, an independent company which was bought by LeBlanc. I don't have any idea about the timing of Holton-made Vitos, Beaugnier-made Vitos, and the acquisition of Holton by LeBlanc.

 

[Woodpad]

Vito Pascucci was also the tech from the Glenn Miller band.

 

[ghostler]

it’s also known that a lot of them were assembled in the US (to avoid import duties on musical instruments - parts aren’t taxed the same way, if at all)

It is interesting that my Jupiter Vito had no country of manufacture. There is a possibility that it may have been partially assembled overseas to be still considered as parts, then completed by a US Le Blanc plant?

In the Cox Engine Forum, occasionally a couple of former employees of the US plant would chime in and give us specifics we otherwise knew little of.

It would be good if we had such who worked for Le Blanc either in management or on the line, or distribution to chime in. Of course there also could have been a non-disclosure employment agreement signed, which would then prevent one from saying anything.

 

[skeller047]

This history is messy, and it’s long ago enough that information has been lost. It might be too late to find people with intact memories, and I suspect a lot of stuff wasn’t written down. Conn-Selmer may have some records stored in an archive site somewhere, but it would probably be difficult and time consuming to go through it all. I think we just have to be comfortable with the fact that definitive answers may never come.

PhD thesis anyone? (Not me, I’m too old and have better things to do with my time…) And even then there will be exceptions and outliers and contradictions.

 

[ghostler]

This history is messy, and it’s long ago enough that information has been lost. It might be too late to find people with intact memories, and I suspect a lot of stuff wasn’t written down. Conn-Selmer may have some records stored in an archive site somewhere, but it would probably be difficult and time consuming to go through it all. I think we just have to be comfortable with the fact that definitive answers may never come.

PhD thesis anyone? (Not me, I’m too old and have better things to do with my time…) And even then there will be exceptions and outliers and contradictions.

I think at this point we are in a forensic mode. Yes since, various information websites and blogs are no longer on-line. Regarding Beaugnier history, I succinctly remember reading about 13 years ago, a lengthy detailed history someone had so carefully well written that included names, photographs of even the Beaugnier factory buildings and campus with a bit of the surrounding city. It also had photos of workers actually working on the saxes in the factory at various stages.

Since, like many of our information sources to include those on various other forums in Geocities, Yahoo Groups, private forums and blogs, Usenet, and etc. have been lost over time. Public libraries due to size and funding restrictions, have removed from their libraries various historic books because they were not read as often, to make room for newer books.

Regarding Conn-Selmer records, through various management changes, company takeovers, etc., these records may appear to be dead weight for the recycling bin and these do not affect current direction and practise. The new facilities moved to may not have the storage capacity to contain them, leaving employees to sift and toss.