Tech/maintenance Truetone Soprano Restoration

[Figaro]

I picked up this 1925 Buescher soprano last year for the bargain price of £100. I'd like to restore it myself but beyond my skills unfortunately.

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Earlier this year I knew nothing about saxophone repair. I bought a 1925 Holton alto in fair condition and just dove in. Now I have that horn restored and playable, a Martin Handcraft tenor overhauled and playable and in the process of restoring a 1917 King baritone. I had zero "specialty tools" but now I have a decent quiver of tools of which several are home made and get the job done just fine. I have learned a ton about the instrument and repair techniques, and made friends along the way.
What really helped was the support I got from the online community. Much willingness to share and give advice. I made some mistakes along the way but that's simply part of the learning process.

I would encourage you to just jump in and give it a go. It's a very rewarding feeling when you end up with an instrument you can play that you've put your heart and sweat into.

 

[JayeNM]

I picked up this 1925 Buescher soprano last year for the bargain price of £100. I'd like to restore it myself but beyond my skills unfortunately.

Sopranos, IMHO, are the most difficult of saxes for a DIY'er to tackle, actually. If one does not have a good 6-7 previous resurrection attempts under their belt on altos or tenors - I would not particularly suggest jumping on trying a Sop .

On the other hand, yours is keyed up to high F, so at 100 quid acquisition cost ?....if done by a tech, it would have a high market value when complete.
So the tech work would be 'covered' by the resale value, at least. Not sure what tech work runs over there but over here, techs (Outside of California, NY, and a few other big municipalities) can be found to do this o/h for around $600-700 ....and a small profit would be turned on this (maybe $200-300ish when all said and done).
Even if an expensive tech charges, say $1000...the value at the end would still equal the investment.

You could even 'start it' yourself....disassembly, pad removal, cleaning.....then hand it off to a tech. 15-20% of the job will have been done already, which most techs would appreciate and probably give you a slight price break on....

Just a thought.

 

[PigSquealer]

I bought a 1925 Holton alto in fair condition and just dove in.
Martin Handcraft tenor overhauled and playable and in the process of restoring a 1917 King baritone.

I would encourage you to just jump in and give it a go. It's a very rewarding feeling when you end up with an instrument you can play that you've put your heart and sweat into.

Your Holton “just dove in” that’s an understatement. And it turned out really well for your first project.
That Martin you did was disassembled when you purchased it. It was obvious the PO DIY didn’t seek assistance. You did a beautiful job.

You could even 'start it' yourself....disassembly, pad removal, cleaning.....then hand it off to a tech. 15-20% of the job will have been done already, which most techs would appreciate and probably give you a slight price break on....

Just a thought.

Agreed. A great way to learn. Still it’s a good thing to make contact with the tech before hand. Have a game plan. Knowing how to pass along to the tech is equally important.

 

[LostCircuits]

Be very careful with the silver, no Noxon, Brasso or similar, use Wright silver polish or anything rated for jewelry. Flitz is very good as is Mother's Mag and Aluminum polish (Advance Auto parts etc. ) Once you.ve ruined the silver, there is no turning back.

 

[jbtsax]

Haggerty makes a silver polish cloth that is very "gentle" on silver plating. Also JL Smith sells a tarnish ragging cloth that works quite well.

 

[jbtsax]

Sometimes projects don't go quite as planned. The photos below tell the story. A up close inspection of the finish following the tarnish dip and wash revealed "blotches" in the finish I had never seen before having restored many silver vintage saxophones as shown in the first photo. The second photo was taken after attempting to polish out the "blotches" using several different silver polishing products I have used in the past.

At this point I decided to try to brush plate the body with my brush plating set-up. The result is shown below. As you can see, the plating took on a blue/black or yellowish hue. I did everything by the book: electro cleaning, surface prep, distilled water rinses, new silver brush plating solution, and using below the recommended voltage.

 

[jbtsax]

Being a bit OCD with a healthy dose of stubbornness and persistence, I didn't give up. Using white silver polish hand ragging cloth from JL Smith, I aggressively polished the surface. Then I use a bit of Haggerty's polish on Q-tips (cotton buds) to get in the "nooks and crannies" the ragging cloth missed.

The result was "satisfactory" "if you don't look too close" as my teacher used to say, though not up to my usual standards. Now I am on a quest to discover what was wrong with the original silver plating in the first place, and why plating over it came out so discolored. I had originally planned to gold plate the bell, but in order to put down a layer of nickel underneath the gold plating I would have had to buff off the existing silver plating down to the bare brass. That is something I didn't want to do.

 

[Figaro]

Black tarnish = Silver Sulfide.

I've used the passive electrolysis method and it works well. In 4 gallons (15 liters) of water mix 2 cups (400 g) washing soda (sodium carbonate) and 1/3 cup (7 g) salt. Stir until dissolved. Line a pan or your bath tub with aluminum foil, pour in mixture and place sliver tarnished parts in the solution making sure they are touching the aluminum. The sulfide will migrate to the aluminum because the aluminum has a great affinity to it that silver does. It may not completely remove it all but it loosens it's bond and it polishes away easily.

 

[Nick Wyver]

My first sax was a Buescher sop. This was it in 1975 (sorry about the slightly naff pic - I was doing a vaguely arty photographic course at the time and this was one of the exercises using a large format (5x4) camera).

 

[jbtsax]

After getting frustrated and putting the project on hold and then going back to it, I have finally finished the True-Tone soprano nearly 2 1/2 years later. I will be posting a few photos soon to show the finished result.

My first play test was a complete disaster. My trusted Selmer D soprano mouthpiece could not be pulled out far enough to get it down to pitch. After I built up the cork and got the note B to sound A=440 I couldn't play a recognizable scale and the octaves were anything but . . . I did everything I have learned to do with key heights etc. and it was a real disappointment how it played.

After doing a bit of research online, I discovered that I was the proud owner of a "C soprano"---not one in Bb! With this newly found knowledge I pushed the mouthpiece on nearly to the octave vent and tuned the note B to a B on the piano. It played beautifully from top to bottom with just a few intonation idiosyncrasies that will clear up with a bit of practice to become familiar with the saxophone.

My research has concluded that you can't make a C soprano play in the key of Bb by pulling the mouthpiece out (nor should you). Still Learnin'.

 

[PigSquealer]

Ugg that’s the worst feeling in the world. Ya sit back and look at all the beautiful work and go to give it a honk and it’s crap. Fascinating that it’s a C. Not real common from what I’ve been told. I essentially did the same thing as you. I bought a Buescher soprano in a case that I thought was oddly large. The case wasn’t large the sop was short. Found out it was a C.

 

[jbtsax]

Ugg that’s the worst feeling in the world. Ya sit back and look at all the beautiful work and go to give it a honk and it’s crap. Fascinating that it’s a C. Not real common from what I’ve been told. I essentially did the same thing as you. I bought a Buescher soprano in a case that I thought was oddly large. The case wasn’t large the sop was short. Found out it was a C.

Maybe we can start a "club" or something. 😉

 

[LostCircuits]

After getting frustrated and putting the project on hold and then going back to it, I have finally finished the True-Tone soprano nearly 2 1/2 years later. I will be posting a few photos soon to show the finished result.

My first play test was a complete disaster. My trusted Selmer D soprano mouthpiece could not be pulled out far enough to get it down to pitch. After I built up the cork and got the note B to sound A=440 I couldn't play a recognizable scale and the octaves were anything but . . . I did everything I have learned to do with key heights etc. and it was a real disappointment how it played.

After doing a bit of research online, I discovered that I was the proud owner of a "C soprano"---not one in Bb! With this newly found knowledge I pushed the mouthpiece on nearly to the octave vent and tuned the note B to a B on the piano. It played beautifully from top to bottom with just a few intonation idiosyncrasies that will clear up with a bit of practice to become familiar with the saxophone.

My research has concluded that you can't make a C soprano play in the key of Bb by pulling the mouthpiece out (nor should you). Still Learnin'.

John, I have a few c-sop MPCs including original Buescher and Morgan, I'll be happy to loan them out to you if you are interested.

On a side note, the c-sop has a very distinct tone, more like an oboe than a sax and my c-sop is one of my jewels that I wouldn't trade for anything.

 

[PigSquealer]

Aargh now you guys have me wanting to work on my C SOP. Too many projects going. However you guys got me curious about the mouthpiece. Just took the case out and guess what? It’s stamped Bb.
is there any real big difference?

 

[LostCircuits]

Aargh now you guys have me wanting to work on my C SOP. Too many projects going. However you guys got me curious about the mouthpiece. Just took the case out and guess what? It’s stamped Bb.
is there any real big difference?
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Yes, there is a big difference, the Bb MPC will not play on the c-sop. Just look at the difference in length.
I mean, they will play but they won't play in tune, no matter how much effort you put into it. But the Buescher in your pics looks like somebody cut it off and then used some mastic to fake it to look like a real thing. It might work if the bore was adjusted but there is no telling from any picture unless you try it. My guess is "meh"

 

[Jeanette]

Looking forward to the pics @jbtsax 🙂

Jx

 

[thomsax]

I bought my Buesher C-soprano (#128 XXX , manufactoried on September 10, 1923 in Elkhart, Indiana, USA) from Paul Cohen and he recommend me to use a "stubby" small chamber Bb soprano if the C-soprano pieces didn't fit me. He wrote a letter that came alog with the sax. Threre were some other usefull tips as well.

I also bought a Buesher Bb soprano (handburnished, silverplated, goldwash bell, the model name is LP-122). A great sax from 1928 in mint condition. No snap-on pads (system) on this sax. Modern pads with plastic domed resonators. I think Joe Sax, NJ, did the job? I don't think a handburnished sax should be buffed by machine.

 

[turf3]

Welcome to the world of the C soprano!

There are very few of us who play these regularly (and I don't really consider myself one, to be honest), but I'll give you a bit about my experiences.

I have a Holton C soprano, one of the few keyed to high F. I would not characterize the tone as necessarily oboe-like - I think of that as being more a characteristic of a Bb soprano with a small chamber mouthpiece. I would use adjectives like "light" or "sweet".

Professor Cohen and some others have written consistently that good results on intonation are going to be hard/impossible to achieve with a Bb soprano mouthpiece and that one really needs a true C soprano mouthpiece. This has not been my experience; I have found that using either my Rousseau 4C or my Selmer S-80 C* mouthpiece on the C soprano gives me accurate intonation, within my ability as a baritone specialist to control the thing. What I mean is, I don't find tuning anomalies (individual notes way out of tune) nor trending errors (like, all the low notes get progressively sharper). I'm certainly ready to admit that Professor Cohen's standards for acceptable intonation are higher than mine; I'm positive that he's got a much better overall command of the thing to really be able to find intonation anomalies. But just coming at it from my standpoint, I really didn't notice any serious issues with those moderate-design Bb mouthpieces. I wouldn't be surprised to find problems in using a Bb mouthpiece with a tiny chamber, or one with a cavernous chamber.

Since I had to cut off the ends of both my Bb soprano mouthpieces to be able to use them on my Buescher Bb soprano, the length wasn't an issue on the Holton C. That's not uncommon anyway. And they're both relatively inexpensive mouthpieces readily replaced for short money, so I didn't hesitate to take after them with a hacksaw and files.

I love the light weight of the C soprano. I can play it for far longer than the Bb before my right thumb gives out.


The keywork is a bit odd, compared to the Bb, and keys are in slightly odd places - but that may be Holton vs. Buescher rather than Bb vs. C.

Boy is it sensitive to pitch. A voicing change that would result in a minor change of timbre on baritone will bend a note two half-steps on C soprano. It's clear to me that extensive long tone development practice would be helpful in getting a stable and precise embouchure.

 

[Hankenstine]

I have a Conn Eagle C soprano mouthpiece that I bought a few years ago. At the time I thought it was the correct mouthpiece for a Conn stretch soprano but it turned out to be for C soprano. It's surplus to requiments as I don't have an instrument for it if anyone is interested... or perhaps I should just find myself a C soprano to use it with?

 

[LostCircuits]

Welcome to the world of the C soprano!

There are very few of us who play these regularly (and I don't really consider myself one, to be honest), but I'll give you a bit about my experiences.

I have a Holton C soprano, one of the few keyed to high F. I would not characterize the tone as necessarily oboe-like - I think of that as being more a characteristic of a Bb soprano with a small chamber mouthpiece. I would use adjectives like "light" or "sweet".

Professor Cohen and some others have written consistently that good results on intonation are going to be hard/impossible to achieve with a Bb soprano mouthpiece and that one really needs a true C soprano mouthpiece. This has not been my experience; I have found that using either my Rousseau 4C or my Selmer S-80 C* mouthpiece on the C soprano gives me accurate intonation, within my ability as a baritone specialist to control the thing. What I mean is, I don't find tuning anomalies (individual notes way out of tune) nor trending errors (like, all the low notes get progressively sharper). I'm certainly ready to admit that Professor Cohen's standards for acceptable intonation are higher than mine; I'm positive that he's got a much better overall command of the thing to really be able to find intonation anomalies. But just coming at it from my standpoint, I really didn't notice any serious issues with those moderate-design Bb mouthpieces. I wouldn't be surprised to find problems in using a Bb mouthpiece with a tiny chamber, or one with a cavernous chamber.

Since I had to cut off the ends of both my Bb soprano mouthpieces to be able to use them on my Buescher Bb soprano, the length wasn't an issue on the Holton C. That's not uncommon anyway. And they're both relatively inexpensive mouthpieces readily replaced for short money, so I didn't hesitate to take after them with a hacksaw and files.

I love the light weight of the C soprano. I can play it for far longer than the Bb before my right thumb gives out.


The keywork is a bit odd, compared to the Bb, and keys are in slightly odd places - but that may be Holton vs. Buescher rather than Bb vs. C.

Boy is it sensitive to pitch. A voicing change that would result in a minor change of timbre on baritone will bend a note two half-steps on C soprano. It's clear to me that extensive long tone development practice would be helpful in getting a stable and precise embouchure.

I'd love to see some pictures of your Holton, I've never seen one, do you also have the G# trill key? The Buescher keywork is pretty standard.

As for the intonation, I trust your judgement, as long as you can push it on far enough it should work. I just looked in more detail at my Morgan VIntage Jazz c-sop vs. sop and the facing including window is pretty much the same within the margins of tolerance, which makes sense because they will all take soprano reeds. In other words, there is no difference in the geometry of these pieces from the throat forward. But I can't get the Morgan to play in tune on my Buescher and I believe that was the reason why it was a return before I bought it.

Regarding the tone, it is a matter of semantics and the MPC - reed used in that particular setup but I'll settle for "sweet", the oboe characterization came from a pro player customer who stopped by my house and 3 hours later he was still trying yet another one horn of my vintage collection.

Weight, yes, I love how lightweight they are, I can play the c-sop forever.

PItch "sensitive" is an understatement but like you alluded, if you can hit a precise tone on the c-sop, you can do it on any other horn