Saxophones So where does the King Super 20 fit into the scheme of things?

kevgermany · Dec 11, 2013

If it really is a full pearls, don't hesitate. Don't think just buy. Sadly they're collector's items because of the rarity.

I've said it too many times before, but my old teacher had a deputy alto and it sounded superb on an old Brilhart Personaline. Really sweet.

milandro · Dec 11, 2013

Maybe you misunderstood me Late Cleveland not as in USA models which were the ones from the ’80 where the engraving doesn’t say Cleveland or Eastlake but USA.

I have seen and played on two of those Silversonic ( it does say Super 20) USA and even bought one (not silversonic), they are always cheap and for a reason.

Fraser Jarvis · Dec 11, 2013

The one in David's pictures is a very late one and although looks very nice is very over priced, probably made by UMI and probably has a Japanese body :w00t:

best to avoid and look for a Cleveland or Eastlake with the underslung octave, remember the Eastlake produced ones are regarded as some of the best playing ones out there. Incidentally i saw the tenor with full pearls I mentioned in an earlier post again last night and it actually dates to 1946 and not 36, the guy played it and my Selmer side by side for a comparison, from were I was sitting I could hear a massive difference....King smooth and mellow...Selmer big and ballsy.

DavidUK · Dec 11, 2013

The one I'm after, as in post #1, is in the UK, owned by a fellow enthusiast for another of my hobbies, which is how I found out about it.

Fraser Jarvis · Dec 11, 2013

As Kev said above, if it's full pearls just pay the money and get it, you won't regret buying it.

thomsax · Dec 11, 2013

The full pearl Super 20 's are delicate but I think the saxes wo side- and palm keys are as good as the ones with pearls. The Zephyr Special was introduced -38-39 and the Super 20 c 1947.

I don't think UMI manufactoried any saxes stamped with "King Super 20". The Easlake facillity produced all UMI brass intruments and the UMI facility in Nogales, Arizona, made saxophones and clarinets. The UMI saxes are stamped with "USA".

thomsax · Dec 11, 2013

I mean "... saxes wo pearls on side- and palm keys ....". Is a sax stamped with USA made in USA? UMI made all thier saxes in USA.

Greg Strange · Dec 11, 2013

I agree with Thomsax postings above - no doubt he has been researching through some old Saxophone Journal magazines as Paul Cohen wrote a series of excellent articles about the history of King saxophones and the Super 20 was introduced after the Second World War circa 1947...

Regards,

Greg S.

milandro · Dec 12, 2013

the Super 20 USA was a late Super 20 often with a over-slung neck, made from the ’80 onwards, not designated as Cleveland or Eastlake on the bell but simply with USA.

davidk · Dec 12, 2013

A King Super 20 is reviewed here:
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Reviews/Saxes/Tenor/Late_KingS20_tenor.htm

Where they fit into the scheme of things: professional level tenors, part of the vintage big four (Buescher, Conn, Martin, King). I had an early Eastlake model for a few years. It had a glorious sound. However, the B flat table key doesn't tilt, and the lower stack is in line with the upper stack. I found it uncomfortable compared to the post Selmer Mark VI key work. By the way, it is loud.

Mikey B · Dec 12, 2013

Just to elaborate on what Milandro said, the later Super 20,s are marked as King Musical Instruments, USA.

Also you will find these horns did not have the engraving on the low B/Bb pad cups.

The construction of the body tubes are different as well, having drawn tone holes instead of the silver soldered type.

Altogether a different instrument. I would avoid buying one of these unless it was really cheap.

thomsax · Dec 12, 2013

Greg Strange said:
I agree with Thomsax postings above - no doubt he has been researching through some old Saxophone Journal magazines as Paul Cohen wrote a series of excellent articles about the history of King saxophones and the Super 20 was introduced after the Second World War circa 1947...

Regards,

Greg S.

Paul Cohen gave me this information before he started to write in Saxophone Journal . I bought saxes from Paul Cohen in the early 80's. Very nice man.

thomsax · Dec 12, 2013

Mikey B said:
The construction of the body tubes are different as well, having drawn tone holes instead of the silver soldered type.

Didn't King drop the silver solderd toneholes in the late 50's? And some years later even the double socket neckjoint? My King Super 20 -66-67 had drawn toneholes. And the neck fit a SML tenor perfect!

Fraser Jarvis · Dec 12, 2013

My 61 Silversonic has silver soldered tone holes...incedently the one featured in Stephen Howard's review is a UMI produced sax and carries the legend "King Super 20" on the bell, but instead of Cleveland or Eastlake it has "King Musical Instruments USA" even though King or for that matter HN White would not have existed when it was produced, this sax would have had drawn tone holes on it's imported Japanese body tube...

davidk · Dec 13, 2013

thomsax said:
Didn't King drop the silver solderd toneholes in the late 50's? And some years later even the double socket neckjoint? My King Super 20 -66-67 had drawn toneholes. And the neck fit a SML tenor perfect!

Eastlake (1970s) Super 20s had silver soldered tone holes but no double socket crook joint.

milandro · Dec 13, 2013

My 460xxx Eastlake has brazed toneholes and no double socket.

thomsax · Dec 14, 2013

Kings late serial numbers are confusing. My latest King Super 20 tenor was a 871XXX that I bought new in Stockholm spring 1983. King Musical Instruments confirmed that it was made c 1983. The bell was stamped with "King Super 20 USA" and nothing more. The model was called 2416K. Some years earlier the model was called KG-2416 and there was a model called KG-2416S with solid sterling silver bell and mouthpipe.

UMI was formed in 1985 by the Swedish conglomerate Skåne Gripen and I have some of UMI's catalouges and I can't see any Super 20's. Maybe they sold King Super 20's after all?

The S20 on SH website has a lower serial than "mine" and also different engraving. Maybe that sax is from the late 70's or early 80's!?!?!

I have owned 3 Super 20: early full pearl tenor with silver neck, std King s20 c 66-67 and a -83. The King from the 60's was best for me. The late King Super 20 didn't play like a King! Neckjoint problem as well.

I thought the King from the 60's had drawn toneholes. When I played my King from the 60's sax I was not so much into saxes and thier history. I was was Paul Cohen that some years later opened my eyes.

kevgermany · Dec 14, 2013

For the King nuts, a newish site: http://www.hnwhite.com/Serial Numbers.htm

But it doesn't shed much light, sadly.

Fraser Jarvis · Dec 14, 2013

kevgermany said:
For the King nuts, a newish site: http://www.hnwhite.com/Serial Numbers.htm

But it doesn't shed much light, sadly.

Guess it was a bit early, but see post 17....

zootspiker · Dec 24, 2013

Early Super 20's in the '40's were pretty similiar to the Zephyr Specials (I sold a full pearl Zeph Special a couple years back) Sterling silver double socket neck; Nickel silver rods; Silver was laquered over with gold laquer in the factory; full pearls; underslung octave).

I currently own a 300xxx S-20 tenor (Silver neck and silver nickel rods were factory sprayed with gold laquer; Full pearls; Old style pant guard; engraved key cups); Plays best with a large chamber mpc.

A 400xxx Silversonic (Single socket receiver; sterling silver neck and bell; silver nickel rods; palm keys; pinky cluster octave; underslung octave; new style (like selmer) pant guard) Plays fine with a small chamber high baffle orginal guardala King.

I also have a 433xxx Eastlake Silversonic. I've heard that the early Eastlake horns are pretty much the same as the Cleveland horns. (Double arms on low C; underslung neck; engraved Bell caps etc. ) I think the move from Cleveland Ohio to Eastlake Ohio was somewhere in the 420xxx range, but they still had a lot of existing inventory they brought over from Cleveland through approximately 500xxx. I don't have any information on the tooling.

In general I found my earlier horns were darker with a consistant voice from top to bottom. (My teacher was really surprised at the tonal consistancy and she has a better ear than I) the latter (1960ish has a brighter more contemporary sound but by no means thin) these Kings are monsters and if like me you love the sound and the texture you can get around the ergonomics which aren't all that bad. Just not quite as easy as the Selmers and the Asian clones.

They are very durable horns but according to my tech who is extremely experienced; they are a little tough to work on; therefore it would behoove you to have a tech lined up who has experience with Kings.

These are definitely jazz horns versus say Selmer which are in general as more of a utility horn. Couple of King players (with High baffle bergs) include the late Yusef Latif; Wilton Felder (Crusaders). Hope this is helpful.
Cheers