Saxophones Sax Section in a Symphony Orchestra

[Ivan]

Just to point out that that was posted before...not as finger wagging but because some of the responses in the other thread are - equally - fascinating and informed

Maybe the threads could be merged?

Classical - Why Is There No Saxophone in the Orchestra

cafesaxophone.com

Ah

I searched, did not find and posted

 

[dexdex]

I tend to consider that without Coleman Hawkins and jazz in general, the saxophone would be a forgotten museum item. Among other weird inventions.

 

[Vlad]

I tend to consider that without Coleman Hawkins and jazz in general, the saxophone would be a forgotten museum item. Among other weird inventions.

It would still be a key component of military type bands and probably in the theatre / light entertainment sphere, in a parallell universe without jazz, who knows what might have evolved instead !

 

[Grumps]

In my last year of junior high school (now middle school to most) I was asked to join the school orchestra in addition to the concert band to help out their woodwind section; on ALTO SAX. The school orchestral arrangements back then did seem to always have an alto part.

 

[turf3]

It's well worth keeping in mind that the saxophone existed 70 years before the dawn of recorded jazz, and more like 80 years before it became prominent in jazz. So the failure of orchestras to take up the saxophone was established in the years between 1845 and 1927 or so. The use of the saxophone in jazz had nothing to do with it.

The fact is that the majority of the orchestral repertoire, even today, was written before 1850. When composers in the period 1850-1930 chose instrumentation, they did so based on what they were familiar with and what was readily available. As a result, the saxophone was pretty much inevitably going to be a niche instrument for specific applications, not a standard member of the woodwind section.

 

[Tenor Viol]

Even the clarinet only became an established member of the orchestra after 1800. It's only used in some of the last symphonies by Mozart and almost none by Haydn. Trombones were not a part of orchestral music until Beethoven onwards (specifically 5th symphony) but that was a cultural issue. Trombone was regarded as an instrument for "sacred" music, so it was used in religious music, e.g. Mozart Requiem, but not in secular music.

Evolution of what is/is not in the orchestra got very messy in the C19th.

 

[dexdex]

It's well worth keeping in mind that the saxophone existed 70 years before the dawn of recorded jazz, and more like 80 years before it became prominent in jazz. So the failure of orchestras to take up the saxophone was established in the years between 1845 and 1927 or so. The use of the saxophone in jazz had nothing to do with it.
….

Thus my debatable but possible observation that Mr Hawkins and his colleagues eventually gave that strange horn a long awaited recognition.

 

[turf3]

Thus my debatable but possible observation that Mr Hawkins and his colleagues eventually gave that strange horn a long awaited recognition.

I think you're right - debatable.

Certainly Sousa and Gilmore, and the thousands of town and mill bands that emulated them, found a place for the saxophone - a place closely related to its original purpose which was to provide a loud reliable bass instrument for military bands.

Then we have the military bands of the World War One period, many of which had saxophones in them.

After WW1, then, there existed a number of people who had some degree of experience at playing saxophone, and there was some amount of inventory of saxophones, in pawn shops, military surplus, etc. (The US military shrank VERY QUICKLY after the Armistice.) It was logical, then, that saxophones would be used in popular dance music as well.

I believe that Jimmy Dorsey, Frankie Trumbauer, and Rudy Weidoeft pre-dated Coleman Hawkins in public visibility. Quite possibly, Sidney Bechet as well. On the other hand, there's absolutely no doubt that Hawkins established one of the two major schools of jazz tenor saxophone playing and was enormously influential up to the present day. So if Coleman had decided to stay with the cello, how would the history of the saxophone have been different? You can see in those old band photos from the 20s that the forest of woodwinds in front of the band was a standard feature of instrumentation. It might have been that no single commanding figure would have emerged in jazz saxophone the way Hawkins did - but that might simply have meant that it would remain more like piano or trombone in the 20s and 30s, still fully integrated members of the jazz ensemble, but without that single dominating figure.

I suspect that the rise of the saxophone in popular music and jazz in the late 20s on into the decades following would have happened anyway - the cadre of musicians who knew how to play it, the availability of instruments, and the tonal flexibility and ability to project in a dance hall were all there.

 

[lydian]

Since most symphonic repertoire was written before the sax existed, I completely understand it not being accepted there. It had a great run in concert bands, wind ensembles, military bands, school bands, jazz, pop, rock, soul, R&B. It's kind of disappeared from contemporary pop (since the late 80s) simply because tastes change.

Would it have disappeared if not for jazz? I think it found enough uses otherwise to survive regardless. It's got a lot going for it - it sounds great, looks great and is easy to play. It definitely accomplished Sax's goal of creating a more powerful woodwind. And its distinct sound adds a lot of nice texture to whatever group it's in.