Saxophones Sax Section in a Symphony Orchestra

[Vlad]

In this photo of a large orchestra there appears to be, unusually, a complete saxophone section, lower left of pic, I can see 2 Altos, a Tenor and a Baritone, possibly there would be another tenor hidden behind the harp. I'm wondering what piece they might be playing ? There appears to be quite a bit of tuned percussion available here too.
The pic is from an old record of a Beethoven symphony and it's clearly not that ! I'd be thinking a more modern piece, for instance Shostakovitch used saxophones on occasion as I recall

 

[Tenor Viol]

The sax never really took off as an orchestral instrument. It's main use in its early years was in military/marching bands. As to why it's never had a permanent home in the symphony orchestra, I'm not sure there's a simple answer.

One is that by the time the sax was 'commonplace' the line-up of the orchestra was established with woodwind being flutes, oboes, clarinets, and bassoons, and brass being French horns, trumpets, trombones and tubas, although the last two were not regular members until later in the C19th.

The clarinet was the last member to be added to the woodwind section of the orchestra around the 1780s/90s. Mozart only used them in some of the last few symphonies and Haydn rarely used either.

So, it might be that the constitution of the orchestra was regarded as 'settled' except for specific requirements for colour and effect.

Pitch might have been an issue? Military band instruments I think were at a different higher pitch to orchestral ones... but pitch in the C19th was a minefield with 'concert A' varying between 380Hz and over 480Hz at times in various places.

Saxes do appear in some works in the late C19th and more so into the C20th, but never as a regular orchestra member. .

 

[Vlad]

I had also heard that there was a bit of a rivalry going on with Mr Sax and other more old established instrument makers, and there was a certain amount of 'fixing' or 'blacklisting' against the new instrument, prejudicing against it within the established musical status quo.
I believe that Mr Sax himself had envisaged the saxophone as most definitely an orchestral family of instruments, but was initially taken up by the French military in particular. His original notion of it as an orchestral instrument would have been a good one, as we've seen subsequently it's a very useful and versatile set of hooters in many guises

 

[Nick Wyver]

I think snobbery played a large part. Saxophonists were not regarded as serious musicians.

Some of us still aren’t.

 

[Vlad]

I think snobbery played a large part. Saxophonists were not regarded as serious musicians.

Some of us still aren’t.

Certainly when the saxophone became involved in popular music noses were tuned up at it , and it got a riff-raff reputation.
..funnily enough some decades ago I was wonderfully described as a "hooligan player" by some clarinettist as I recall. ( no doubt guilty as charged ) 😉

 

[ghostler]

Certainly when the saxophone became involved in popular music noses were tuned up at it , and it got a riff-raff reputation. ..funnily enough some decades ago I was wonderfully described as a "hooligan player" by some clarinettist as I recall. ( no doubt guilty as charged ) 😉

BTDT. 😉

 

[ghostler]

In the military bands, the saxophones are more dominant. There are several reasons for this, because they do traditional swing, jazz, rock jazz, concert band, ensembles and outdoor marching band.

In the marching band, the saxes are capable of greater volume than clarinets and flutes, often carry the countermelodies.

As a member of the 25th ID Band at Schofield Barracks, Hawaii in the mid 1970's, (Oct. 1974 was transferred to the 25th after my 264th AB, Honolulu was deactivated - part of post Vietnam War military service reductions), as the woodwind section leader I convinced the clarinetists to play sax for the field. Then, the Vietnam War had just wound down and recruiting was difficult to include the music field. We were authorized around 40 players, but in reality had roughly 25 - 30, an overabundance of brass and percussion.

I shared my idea with our 1st Sergeant, and he was all for it.

With our rag tag woodwind section, after sax conversion, now we had 2 - 1st altos, 2- 2nd altos, 3 - tenors, 1 - bari and the flute player chose piccolo. I was on 1st alto. (That is how tiny our woodwind section was.)

To put out greater volume, through the 1st Sgt. got supply to buy us Berg Larson Metal Mouthpieces. That was a morale booster to the saxes. (Being expensive, prior we were relegated to less expensive mouthpieces. Arnold Brillhardts were common.) Now we could cut through with the trumpets.

(Our new configuration was also a boost to our stage band.) 😉

We started doing our new sectional configuration at all outdoor field jobs. 1st job we did, the 25th ID command leadership was pleased with our "new sound". Not long after, my contract was over and headed to college for a technical degree, but got a very nice 25th ID certificate of appreciation for converting woodwinds to saxes enhancing the music mission.

But being the "hooligan player" that I am, also ride motorcycles.

Saxophones - Carrying a tenor on a (motor)bike?

Ah, I remember this thread. Lots of comments about riding motorbikes, and specifically not riding motorbikes, from people who don't currently ride motorbikes.

cafesaxophone.com

 

[Vlad]

In the military bands, the saxophones are more dominant. There are several reasons for this, because they do traditional swing, jazz, rock jazz, concert band, ensembles and outdoor marching band.

In the marching band, the saxes are capable of greater volume than clarinets and flutes, often carry the countermelodies.

As a member of the 25th ID Band at Schofield Barracks, Hawaii in the mid 1970's, (Oct. 1974 was transferred to the 25th after my 264th AB, Honolulu was deactivated - part of post Vietnam War military service reductions), as the woodwind section leader I convinced the clarinetists to play sax for the field. Then, the Vietnam War had just wound down and recruiting was difficult to include the music field. We were authorized around 40 players, but in reality had roughly 25 - 30, an overabundance of brass and percussion.

I shared my idea with our 1st Sergeant, and he was all for it.

With our rag tag woodwind section, after sax conversion, now we had 2 - 1st altos, 2- 2nd altos, 3 - tenors, 1 - bari and the flute player chose piccolo. I was on 1st alto. (That is how tiny our woodwind section was.)

To put out greater volume, through the 1st Sgt. got supply to buy us Berg Larson Metal Mouthpieces. That was a morale booster to the saxes. (Being expensive, prior we were relegated to less expensive mouthpieces. Arnold Brillhardts were common.) Now we could cut through with the trumpets.

(Our new configuration was also a boost to our stage band.) 😉

We started doing our new sectional configuration at all outdoor field jobs. 1st job we did, the 25th ID command leadership was pleased with our "new sound". Not long after, my contract was over and headed to college for a technical degree, but got a very nice 25th ID certificate of appreciation for converting woodwinds to saxes enhancing the music mission.

But being the "hooligan player" that I am, also ride motorcycles.

Saxophones - Carrying a tenor on a (motor)bike?

Ah, I remember this thread. Lots of comments about riding motorbikes, and specifically not riding motorbikes, from people who don't currently ride motorbikes.

cafesaxophone.com

Very handy having all your stuff purchased by Unc.Sam !
in best hooligan tradition I too used to do motorbikes in my youth but wouldn't bother now, too many stupid hoops to jump thru,,

 

[Vlad]

As regards the sax section in a full orchestra, I had a scout round and find that Florent Schmitt's Symphony in E flat requires a full set of saxophones, and apparently Vaughan Williams 9th needs a sax section too, I'll give both of these a listen if I can find 'em on youtube or whatever. it seems that Florent Schmitt was influenced by Wagner (amongst others) and tended towards rather large and epic forces on occasion, I see that Strauss's Symphonia Domestica seems to need a set too

 

[ghostler]

Very handy having all your stuff purchased by Unc.Sam !

True. As a member of a headquarters band, we also got all the top professional instruments, to include Selmer Mark VI's and Buffet Crampon clarinets. Upon deactivation, the equipment was excessed to 25th ID Band, who benefitted. (Then in general, seemed the headquarters bands were better funded than the combat division support bands.)

But today all is on my own my own quid, hence the budget Brillhardt mouthpieces (Rico Graftonite and Metalite), Bari brand (US), and a few more pricey oddities.

in best hooligan tradition I too used to do motorbikes in my youth but wouldn't bother now, too many stupid hoops to jump thru,,

Living this side of the pond, do not know what you face in terms of licencing, insurance, etc., not to mention also eedjit drivers and possibly where to park your motorbike. Living semi-rurally, have managed to avoid such, but I cringe everytime I pass through a major city.

As regards the sax section in a full orchestra, I had a scout round and find that Florent Schmitt's Symphony in E flat requires a full set of saxophones, and apparently Vaughan Williams 9th needs a sax section too, I'll give both of these a listen if I can find 'em on youtube or whatever. it seems that Florent Schmitt was influenced by Wagner (amongst others) and tended towards rather large and epic forces on occasion, I see that Strauss's Symphonia Domestica seems to need a set too

Here in US, I really have not paid much attention, but based on the popularity of orchestras featuring saxophones playing more modern music and pop music of the past century, I imagine that over time, there will be a morphing of instrumentation to regularly include saxes.

However, the so-called popularity of streaming music has affected live music presentation. Bands seemed more prevalent 40 years ago. I hope that orchestras and symphonic bands can continue unabated. There is more to life than Taylor Swift concerts.

 

[Vlad]

True. As a member of a headquarters band, we also got all the top professional instruments, to include Selmer Mark VI's and Buffet Crampon clarinets. Upon deactivation, the equipment was excessed to 25th ID Band, who benefitted. (Then in general, seemed the headquarters bands were better funded than the combat division support bands.)

But today all is on my own my own quid, hence the budget Brillhardt mouthpieces (Rico Graftonite and Metalite), Bari brand (US), and a few more pricey oddities.

Living this side of the pond, do not know what you face in terms of licencing, insurance, etc., not to mention also eedjit drivers and possibly where to park your motorbike. Living semi-rurally, have managed to avoid such, but I cringe everytime I pass through a major city.

Here in US, I really have not paid much attention, but based on the popularity of orchestras featuring saxophones playing more modern music and pop music of the past century, I imagine that over time, there will be a morphing of instrumentation to regularly include saxes.

However, the so-called popularity of streaming music has affected live music presentation. I hope that orchestras and symphonic bands can continue unabated. There is more to life than Taylor Swift concerts.

I was wondering if you managed to 'demobilise' yourself with a nice horn stashed in your kit bag 😉
Surprising that the US mob used Selmers etc you'd think they'd have been having a contract with one of the American manufactures at that time.

 

[ghostler]

I was wondering if you managed to 'demobilise' yourself with a nice horn stashed in your kit bag 😉

When I arrived at the camp, found that another group had vacated the cabins, making them available to us. Therefore, did not use their camping grounds. I put some things in my cabin room. The music side, all was placed in the auditorium next to the cafeteria, making demob'ing easier.

Surprising that the US mob used Selmers etc you'd think they'd have been having a contract with one of the American manufactures at that time.

Then I had little to do with supply, so really don't know what mechanisms were available. However at the time, there were near 100 US Army Bands. Navy had many bands down to the size of a cruiser. Every major Air Force installation had a band. So, one would think they would have a service-wide prenegotiated contract. (But think in terms of military intelligence - an oxymorn.) 😉

Today they probably have a General Services Administration (GSA) contract on musical instruments (including originating from foreign countries), which would be utilised by Dept. of Interior, Bureau of Indian Affairs (for Native American reservation schools), Dept. of Defense schools (K-12th grade on US and overseas military bases), Recreational Services on each base (for rent / borrow), for resale at the various base exchanges, and of course the bands.

GSA contractual services handles many of the contract functions that used to be done by the military, including civilian fleet vehicle management.

However not being a supply guy, doesn't keep me awake at night.

 

[Vlad]

When I arrived at the camp, found that another group had vacated the cabins, making them available to us. Therefore, did not use their camping grounds. I put some things in my cabin room. The music side, all was placed in the auditorium next to the cafeteria, making demob'ing easier.

Then I had little to do with supply, so really don't know what mechanisms were available. However at the time, there were near 100 US Army Bands. Navy had many bands down to the size of a cruiser. Every major Air Force installation had a band. So, one would think they would have a service-wide prenegotiated contract. (But think in terms of military intelligence - an oxymorn.) 😉

Today they probably have a General Services Administration (GSA) contract on musical instruments (including originating from foreign countries), which would be utilised by Dept. of Interior, Bureau of Indian Affairs (for Native American reservation schools), Dept. of Defense schools (K-12th grade on US and overseas military bases), Recreational Services on each base (for rent / borrow), for resale at the various base exchanges, and of course the bands.

GSA contractual services handles many of the contract functions that used to be done by the military, including civilian fleet vehicle management.

However not being a supply guy, doesn't keep me awake at night.

I suspect there must have been a scheme where the blokes could acquire ex-service instruments at a very good price though ( potential "five fingered discounts" not withstanding ! )

 

[ghostler]

I suspect there must have been a scheme where the blokes could acquire ex-service instruments at a very good price though ( potential "five fingered discounts" not withstanding ! )

Do you mean "creative acquisitions"? (Like in some of the old wartime movie / TV show comedies?)

Personally I was never involved

with those nor knew anyone involved. When a theft or fraud is involved, then Army CID (Central Intelligence Division - maybe they've changed), the equivalent of the FBI gets involved.

When equipment is being taken out of service called "excessed", if not slated for another internal organisation like another band, they go through supply channels to be offered free to 1) public schools and other federal/state/city governments; 2) auctioned to the public. I think this is handled by DRMO (Defense Reutilization and Marketing Office, see:

What is military DRMO? | [November Updated]

What is Military DRMO? Your Complete Guide Military DRMO stands for Defense Reutilization and Marketing Office. It’s the U.S. Department of Defense’s (DoD) central organization responsible for the receipt, storage, and disposal of excess, surplus, and scrap property generated by military...

thegunzone.com

Outside US, they have their own rules in dealing with host nations.

Some time back I used to purchase used government fleet cars from GSA Auctions, when they conducted them in Albuquerque, but now they've moved the location to out of state. Basically I was bidding along side car dealers. My win was dealer cost.

Musical instruments, I don't know how specifically they handle surplusing now.

(They even changed the career field designations. Used to be 02 was the music field, letter following: J=Clarinet, L=Saxophone, G=Flute, etc. Now it is something totally different.)

I have had fun purchasing new (Chinese) and used instruments from E-Bay. Because government channels are more or less a "hit and miss", plus I may be an impractical travel distance to the auction location, usually a major city, I just don't bother to go there.

 

[Vlad]

An interesting video about Mr Sax.


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="

View: https://www.youtube.com/embed/BmJpwT_jcrU?si=D3E7oMtX02WOVY3H
" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" referrerpolicy="strict-origin-when-cross-origin" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[ghostler]

That's quite an interesting story, @Vlad , thanks for sharing. I didn't realise that the man was under a lot of opposition by other woodwind manufacturers, even death threats. Yet, he developed a revolutionary instrument, that today has found its way into even pop music. And, played an important role with developing military bands with the saxophone.

 

[Vlad]

That's quite an interesting story, @Vlad , thanks for sharing. I didn't realise that the man was under a lot of opposition by other woodwind manufacturers, even death threats. Yet, he developed a revolutionary instrument, that today has found its way into even pop music. And, played an important role with developing military bands with the saxophone.

Indeed, quite an amazing story, I knew he faced a lot of opposition from prejudiced parties, but didn't realise how extreme, and how far they had taken it !

 

[Vlad]

I was listening to a bit of Wagner earlier today, I'm kind of surprised Wagner didn't use saxophones in there somewhere as he was quite forward thinking regarding instrumentation, and tended to throw everything in the mix! I'm thinking of the 'Wagner Tubas' for instance, there was a Contrabass Trombone in the Ring cycle somewhere too, and a Bass Trumpet !
The Ring Cycle being completed in the mid 1870s the saxophone was well established by then.