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M/Pieces - Ligs Old berg larsen not going far enough on my horn.

Filip

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You have gotten some well-intentioned but incorrect advice here.

I have run into this before, repeatedly, not just theoretically, in terms of type of problem, but specific to Bergs (especially really good playing Bergs on 10Ms).

Here's what's going on: your mouthpiece has too little volume in the chamber and baffle for the horn, and for you.

For someone else, who plays "flatter" inherently (tighter embouchure, narrower body-cavity, whatever) the mouthpiece will be pushed in further. For you you're far out because you play sharper.

It is common for less accomplished players to play sharper, and for more advance players to play flatter, so that, in other words, more advanced players with more relaxed, more advanced technical tone production tend to push in further with the same mouthpiece. But body cavity and other things are also factors.

Regardless of what you do to the cork, you're going to tune in the same spot, unless you change how you produce sound.

You can stabilize the mouthpiece in that spot -- whatever spot it is that's good for you now -- by having the cork redone. But if it's very far out, and it looks quite far out, you won't be as steady physically as if the mouthpiece was a better match for you and for the stage your tone production is at now, which may change later (the mouthpiece will be less wobbly regardless of the cork when it's pushed further in, more wobbly further out).=

Remember: the problem is that you are sharp. That's why you have to pull out further, i.e. to flatten your overall pitch. Lower volume in the horn and neck = sharper. Greater volume in the horn and neck = flatter.

If your tone production technique doesn't change, and you want to play the same mouthpiece, you would need a horn that plays flatter for you. If you were going to experiment with necks, you should just get a few and try them. The one that plays better for you, with the mouthpiece further in, is likely to to be one with more volume, not less.

There is a lot more to it than this, but I'm out of time. :cheers:

I've read your reply a couple of times... It all makes sense until the "so far out because you play sharp"... Have i not explained the problem well enough?

The issue is that it's playing incredibly flat where it sits and will not go in further into the neck as opposed to needing the piece to be further out on the cork to make it play flatter... which seems to be what you're referring to. Am I missing something ?
 

just saxes

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I've read your reply a couple of times... It all makes sense until the "so far out because you play sharp"... Have i not explained the problem well enough?

The issue is that it's playing incredibly flat where it sits and will not go in further into the neck as opposed to needing the piece to be further out on the cork to make it play flatter... which seems to be what you're referring to. Am I missing something ?


When you pull the mouthpiece out, it is to flatten to the pitch. You have to do that because inherently, when you play, the pitch is sharper than for someone else.

BUT, that doesn't mean you should change how you play.

It could very well be that the same Berg you're playing now, that plays so sharp -- though it IS weird that it would do that on a Taiwan tenor, which is what it looks like you have -- would play sharp like that for a player who normally pushes in very far (with, say, a decent metal Link).
 

Filip

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46
Right... And the problem I'm describing is being unable to push it far enough in to sharpen it.

What you're referring to seems to be the opposite.

Also, the hanson was made in the uk (if we ignore the action)
 

saxyjt

I have saxophone withdrawal symptoms
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When you pull the mouthpiece out, it is to flatten to the pitch. You have to do that because inherently, when you play, the pitch is sharper than for someone else.

Something doesn't add up. Fillip's desperately trying to push the mouthpiece in, not pull it out. :confused2:
 

rhysonsax

Well-Known Member
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4,452
.........................

Remember: the problem is that you are sharp. That's why you have to pull out further, i.e. to flatten your overall pitch. Lower volume in the horn and neck = sharper. Greater volume in the horn and neck = flatter.

...........
There is a lot more to it than this, but I'm out of time. :cheers:

Nice graphic of a wineglass but I think you've been overdoing it and got things back to front. The OP can't get UP to pitch.

The mouthpiece is pushed fully onto the neck and still too flat, rather than falling off the end of the neck and too sharp.

Rhys
 

just saxes

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Good Lord, I could not have misunderstood more completely.

I should have read longer into the thread before responding.

Some input for your actual question:

What you will see on the web about PRC and ROC (next you will tell me it's not an ROC horn...lawd I hope it is, and you don't lol) about the necks seeming long -- that you have to push in deeper/further on PRC and ROC necks than on other regions' makes -- is true in my experience.

On the Crescent line (PRC), the sweet spot is very close to being unworkable on some pitchings for players that normally push in further (the furthest, among the range of players). On curved sopranos, for example, for me, most mouthpieces are in the "sweet spot" when the shank is less than 1mm from the octave key cup. That's very far in. This extends to alto to almost the same extent -- most Meyers will only have 1-2mm of remaining ability to push in further for me, sometimes less than 1mm -- on Crescent altos. The same is true of tenors but tenor mouthpieces seem or tend to have a bit more room/length in the chamber proportionately, so that I notice it less on tenor. It applies to the baris, too.

This is also true, but less exaggeratedly, for my Taiwan tenors ("NOS" line) and they come from the same factory as a number of other well-known others.

So that could be a factor.

There could also be a couple of other contributing factors:

1) the way your neck cork is sanded angles your mouthpiece (relative to the line the end of the neckpipe makes) so that your baffle or mouthpiece throat contacts early. If so, you might get a little more room by looking in through the window to see if one side of the neckpipe opening has more space around it, and redoing the cork.

2) your neck, as suggested by Pete above, could also just be incompatible with the throat and chamber of the mouthpiece as the mouthpiece is designed.

If you have the same problem with other mouthpieces, then the input I had after misunderstanding could be in play: in that event you may want to look into mouthpieces with smaller chambers, possibly higher baffles, and shorter facings. There are a range of Bergs like that, I think maybe the ones marked "SMS" could be starting points.
 

just saxes

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Something that just occurred to me (which has come up before -- I have done this before): if you are really in love with that mouthpiece, you may be able to get a little more room to push in by removing the "tonering" on the neckpipe. Your neckpipe almost certainly has one, though not all neckpipes do.

The main thing the "tonering" is on your neck has little to do with tone. It is there to prevent damage to the end of your neckpipe (by strengthening the opening).

One way to go about that, without risking "totaling" your horn: first, get a second neckpipe that you like as well as the one you have. Then, unsolder the "tonering," clean up, recork, and try. It's unlikely your "tonering" is cuffed/folded like on Conn necks (but with the "lip" extending further back) but if it is you would have to grind the extra thickness off instead. This unlikely but slight possibility is what made me first suggest you have a replacement you're happy with available (or with which to perform the mod, instead of your original neck) before undertaking a mod like this. It's a way to ensure your default/reset if it doesn't work out isn't an unhappy one.
 

saxyjt

I have saxophone withdrawal symptoms
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Fun fact! ;)
IMG_20201009_194542947.jpg


Above are a Meyer and a Selmer mouthpieces. Between them is a piece of 16mm PVC pipe with a bit of tape to help it fit inside the bore of the Selmer mouthpiece that I made a few years ago to keep the inside diameter of the throat and bore equal to the corresponding diameter of the neck. Why? I don't know. I just thought it would be better...

Anyways, that piece of tube/pipe went inside the bore and I could still play in tune.

While you can't play in tune as it is!

Bottom line is. Dig deeper! Don't f$£¥ with your neck and cork. It's the mouthpiece that needs trimming. I have a cheap battery powered rotating tool that I would use to do that. With the appropriate accessory of course...

I'm still amazed that a mouthpiece is so short inside that it won't go in far enough. But I believe you and I'm sorry you're in that position.
 

just saxes

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Fun fact! ;)
View attachment 15790

Above are a Meyer and a Selmer mouthpieces. Between them is a piece of 16mm PVC pipe with a bit of tape to help it fit inside the bore of the Selmer mouthpiece that I made a few years ago to keep the inside diameter of the throat and bore equal to the corresponding diameter of the neck. Why? I don't know. I just thought it would be better...

Anyways, that piece of tube/pipe went inside the bore and I could still play in tune.

While you can't play in tune as it is!

Bottom line is. Dig deeper! Don't f$£¥ with your neck and cork. It's the mouthpiece that needs trimming. I have a cheap battery powered rotating tool that I would use to do that. With the appropriate accessory of course...

I'm still amazed that a mouthpiece is so short inside that it won't go in far enough. But I believe you and I'm sorry you're in that position.

I'm going to refrain from commenting right now because I suspect I'm apt to massively misunderstand again....

I do just want to add that another reason I suggested getting a second neck that you're completely happy with (either to be the back-up, or the neck you use to experiment), is that another fix is to just shorten the neckpipe (reducing its volume, making the neck by itself produce a higher pitch). That will allow you to play the note you prefer to tune to "in tune" and to work from there, but the problem -- this is the voice of experience/experiment talking -- is that when you alter the neckpipe you can get some very undesirable (or desirable) results.

I have had tenor necks (I'm thinking of a Gloger neck, for Conn, which I still have) where a sliver of cork flattening out and overlapping the end of the neckpipe was producing some really weird intonational problems. I can't remember any more what the problems were, but I spent days trying to figure out what had gone wrong, and couldn't find the problem. Then, finally, I noticed the bulging cork over the neckpipe tip, groomed it away, and (voila) problem solved.

And then there are other necks that I have cut and altered greatly -- much larger physical changes -- that did not produce anything close to that level of change in performance for me.

Any changes to the acoustics may have unforseen side-effects. This is why I personally always tell people to try to have 2 necks or 2 mouthpieces that you're happy with when you decide to alter one that is primary for you.
 

saxyjt

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I'm going to refrain from commenting right now because I suspect I'm apt to massively misunderstand again....

It's very interesting to see how one issue can have various solutions.

I'm sorry if my comment above came the wrong way. I just tried to express my take based on my very limited experience... :oops: I like to fix things! Preferably in the simplest, least destructive and possibly cheaper way.
 

just saxes

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It's very interesting to see how one issue can have various solutions.

I'm sorry if my comment above came the wrong way. I just tried to express my take based on my very limited experience... :oops: I like to fix things! Preferably in the simplest, least destructive and possibly cheaper way.

LOL I just felt I didn't understand, most likely. I probably still don't. :cheers:
 

Filip

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46
I've got to say I'm now contemplating selling the berg and getting something getting something i can physically playtest and make sure it fits without spending 50 quid to find out...

One of the things i noticed is that the horn has a lot more get up and go...

With that in mind. Any berg-like recommendations? Or anything that'll make me sound like Cannonball Adderally ;)?
 
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Ivan

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To follow on from @just saxes I have a soprano Berg which has too big a chamber to play anything but flat on my curved soprano sax. I have jammed and jammed that mouthpiece in; but flat it is (great tone and I've tried and tried to make it work for me}

Are you experiencing a similar incompatibility?
 

Filip

Member
Messages
46
To follow on from @just saxes I have a soprano Berg which has too big a chamber to play anything but flat on my curved soprano sax. I have jammed and jammed that mouthpiece in; but flat it is (great tone and I've tried and tried to make it work for me}

Are you experiencing a similar incompatibility?
Sort of. Except my mouthpiece physically won't allow you to jam it in futher.
 

davidk

Paints With Notes
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357
I've got to say I'm now contemplating selling the berg and getting something getting something i can physically playtest and make sure it fits without spending 50 quid to find out...

One of the things i noticed is that the horn has a lot more get up and go...

With that in mind. Any berg-like recommendations? Or anything that'll make me sound like Cannonball Adderally ;)?
Hi

This chart might help:

It puts Cannonball in the dark traditional category, while the Berg 1 chamber is in the bright modern category. It lists a set of mouthpieces in each category, which should help you come up with a shortlist.

Good luck
 

just saxes

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IMO probably at least 1/2 of the time, when people say "bright" or "dark" online they are talking about the opposite thing, or something unrelated, to what the other 1/2 of people are saying when they use the same terms.

This is just my real experience.
 

Filip

Member
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IMO probably at least 1/2 of the time, when people say "bright" or "dark" online they are talking about the opposite thing, or something unrelated, to what the other 1/2 of people are saying when they use the same terms.

This is just my real experience.
I'm with you. I hate the idea of window shopping online for a mouthpiece to be honest - but trying to narrow it down so I can identify some models so I can find somewhere to get my hands on them is useful nevertheless.

I guess to me super bright = paint peeler. (Though this isn't quite what I'm seeking.)

Thanks for taking your time to offer advice on modifying the neck. I've come to the conclusion that while i really like the mouthpiece I'm not quite willing to be chopping/ buying necks or unsoldering bits off them - perhaps my love isn't strong enough, perhaps it's just committment issues!
 

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