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M/Pieces - Ligs Old berg larsen not going far enough on my horn.

Filip

Member
Messages
46
I recently upgraded my horn from a buffet 100 to a hanson sa8 (funnily enough went there with the mindset of picking up a WO1 I've been drooling for over a year - was amazed how the hanson just simply felt better).

The thing is absolutely stunning... But... My jazz mpc, BL sms 1 85 just simply does not go on the crook far enough to play anywhere less then 15 cents flat at room temperature at the very best.

Has anyone had any experience of this? Admittedly I love the berg despite it looks and tired condition and don't fancy looking for anything else if it can be avoided. I messaged Berg and they offered to polish it for me and Ed Pillinger isn't quite available for something like this for a few weeks. Pictured is the mouthpiece in it's furthest condition before hitting the baffle.

IMG_20201001_123411442.jpg
IMG_20201006_153919003.jpg
 

kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
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21,947
Just sand the cork down. Wrap a few layers masking tape around the neck before you start. Or if you're close enough go to Hanson's and ask them to fit the mouthpiece for you.

Common for corks to be oversize, there isn't a fixed size for mouthpiece bore. So most times you need to resize the cork to fit the mouthpiece.
 

Filip

Member
Messages
46
Thanks for your reply. If only it was that simple.

Should have put it in the original message.... I have sanded the cork down already. That doesn't seem to be the issue. It seems the bore is narrowing/crook begging to hit the baffle? Allister couldn't quite shove it on either so I don't feel it's me being silly.

I can push the Sa80 onto the crook right to the end without feeling any extra pressure towards the end. I have noticed the pieces need to go further then the buffet.
 

Filip

Member
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46
Just has another email from Berg confirming they can make the bore deeper, look over the chamber and make sure the table is flat for 45 quid...
 

Colin the Bear

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,161
Your options are to make the mouthpiece wider or the crook narrower. I doubt it's hitting the baffle.
Quite easy to ream out a HR piece.
If you're handy buy a reamer. If not give it to Berg.
 

Filip

Member
Messages
46
My reasons for thinking it's hitting something:

- I can push it so far with some resistance and then it stops dead in it's tracks, i can however still spin it without excessive force. It doesn't just tighten, it hits a definete end.

- I used the same mouthpieces on my previous alto, also tried it with 4c, the SA80 and both have absolutely no trouble going all the way till the end of the cork with similar levels of (perceived) resistance as my last horn.

I took the neck, mouthpieces and a quantity of smooth sandpaper followed with a healthy dollop of vaseline and cork grease to get things absolutely perfect.

Weird I admit.
 

kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
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21,947
Saw the ridge in the mouthpiece issue with some sop pieces. Agree with Colin, send it to Berg.
 

saxyjt

I have saxophone withdrawal symptoms
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Messages
4,192
did you buy it new? It looks old.

Can you take a picture of the inside, where it goes wrong...
 

jbtsax

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8,050
Thanks for the photos. I can see only two options with that particular neck and mouthpiece. One would be to unsolder the protective ring at the end of the mouthpiece (if it has one) and taper the cork at that location to see if that would give you the needed distance. The other, even more invasive, would be to cut off a small portion of the neck itself---something I wouldn't advise.
 

Filip

Member
Messages
46
The issue seems to be the mouthpiece, they should not charge you for correcting it.
I'd totally agree if not the fact that i bought it used for 40 quid and it's clearly old and tired... I'm very hesitant to get rid of it because for some reason i really like the sound and how it plays. I reckon if i can get it to work properly it'll probably be staying with me for a good while.
 

saxyjt

I have saxophone withdrawal symptoms
Subscriber
Messages
4,192
There must be ways to resolve the issue.

The pictures don't show any obvious blocking element. It just looks like the bore is not properly reamed all the way... Some mouthpieces have very long bores, I have metal Selmers that are almost ridiculous in that regard. But here is another extreme, although it's obviously not intentional.

I'm not sure how I would fix that myself. I'd need the right tools to real the deep end of the bore. Doesn't need to be precise as long as you don't touch the first inch of the bore.

I missed a good looking Berg recently. It was a bit pricey for me, but looked really interesting. Sadly it was too far away to envisage a trial. I hesitated too long I guess before submitting an offer. It's now gone...
 
Last edited:

rhysonsax

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,452
Have you still got the Buffet 100 and is the neck from that compatible/interchangeable with the Hanson ?

I have had this issue on a couple of soprano/mouthpiece combinations, but never on alto, tenor or baritone.

I would describe the issue as the end of the neck coming hard up against the THROAT of the mouthpiece - the baffle is the bit just immediately behind the tip rail.

Good luck.

Rhys
 

Colin the Bear

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,161
I had the same issue with alto and sop (G4M). I sawed off the bezel at the end of the crook. No problems apart from nothing to butt against when replacing the cork. Saxes have different bores. Some modern ones seem to be bigger. Some vintage mouthpieces have a smaller bore.
 

Filip

Member
Messages
46
I missed a good looking Berg recently. It was a bit pricey for me, but looked really interesting. Sadly it was too far away to envisage a trial. I hesitated too long I guess before submitting an offer. It's now gone...

One of the things i enjoy about mine is how it looks like it just came out of a cats bottom, it managed to positively surprise a few people that tried it and saying "I love the way it sounds but i hate the way it looks" got me a £50 pound discount.

Have you still got the Buffet 100 and is the neck from that compatible/interchangeable with the Hanson ?

I have had this issue on a couple of soprano/mouthpiece combinations, but never on alto, tenor or baritone.

I would describe the issue as the end of the neck coming hard up against the THROAT of the mouthpiece - the baffle is the bit just immediately behind the tip rail.

Good luck.

Rhys

The neck isn't compatible, and yep. Throat seems to be the correct term. Thanks for correcting me.

Thank you for all the replies people, looks like the piece will go back to berg to make it usable and possibly to Ed Pillinger further down the line to release it's full potential (contacted him recently and he's happy to look at it but not in position to for the next few weeks).
 

just saxes

Member
Commercial Supporter
Messages
284
You have gotten some well-intentioned but incorrect advice here.

I have run into this before, repeatedly, not just theoretically, in terms of type of problem, but specific to Bergs (especially really good playing Bergs on 10Ms).

Here's what's going on: your mouthpiece has too little volume in the chamber and baffle for the horn, and for you.

For someone else, who plays "flatter" inherently (tighter embouchure, narrower body-cavity, whatever) the mouthpiece will be pushed in further. For you you're far out because you play sharper.

It is common for less accomplished players to play sharper, and for more advance players to play flatter, so that, in other words, more advanced players with more relaxed, more advanced technical tone production tend to push in further with the same mouthpiece. But body cavity and other things are also factors.

Regardless of what you do to the cork, you're going to tune in the same spot, unless you change how you produce sound.

You can stabilize the mouthpiece in that spot -- whatever spot it is that's good for you now -- by having the cork redone. But if it's very far out, and it looks quite far out, you won't be as steady physically as if the mouthpiece was a better match for you and for the stage your tone production is at now, which may change later (the mouthpiece will be less wobbly regardless of the cork when it's pushed further in, more wobbly further out).=

Remember: the problem is that you are sharp. That's why you have to pull out further, i.e. to flatten your overall pitch. Lower volume in the horn and neck = sharper. Greater volume in the horn and neck = flatter.

If your tone production technique doesn't change, and you want to play the same mouthpiece, you would need a horn that plays flatter for you. If you were going to experiment with necks, you should just get a few and try them. The one that plays better for you, with the mouthpiece further in, is likely to to be one with more volume, not less.

There is a lot more to it than this, but I'm out of time. :cheers:
 

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