Sheet Music Londeix alternative fingerings

Pete Thomas · Sep 14, 2019

Pete Effamy said:
Now this I would find confusing. That's like Blackadder asking how many sheep there were (3) and Baldrick answering: 2.... and that one over there. Surely 1 and 1 makes more sense as 1st finger up top and 1st finger down below. Otherwise, as you suggest, it means one, plus another.
.....no you're right. The more you think about it, it's all confusing. Just what I grew up with and all of my clarinet teachers used it as the same language. I suppose they were all from the same place though - two had direct links to Brymer and also to Thea King.

No I get 1 and 1. But it's the 1 & 2 that is confusing as it could be 1 and 2 of the same (left) hand. As I said, that would be A. (And please don't mention clarinets)

Pete Effamy · Sep 14, 2019

Pete Thomas said:
No I get 1 and 1. But it's the 1 & 2 that is confusing as it could be 1 and 2 of the same (left) hand. As I said, that would be A. (And please don't mention clarinets)

Yeah.... use a diagram. Especially for the Liquorice Stick.

Pete Effamy · Sep 14, 2019

Pete Effamy said:
Yeah.... use a diagram. Especially for the Liquorice Stick.

Perhaps it's just our language.

Jazzaferri · Sep 14, 2019

hah your a better man than I @Pete Effamy …. a lot of the time I just move my fingertip which rests on teh Bis key

MandyH · Sep 15, 2019

Jazzaferri said:
Fascinating discussion.

I know my technique is probably weird but I use the Bis key almost exclusively even in fast 16ths. I mainly use side Bb as a chromatic trill key though when I practice I do try to remember to use it more normally. When I stop thinking I go back to Bis default. I dont think I have ever used fork Bb except in practicing.

I play flat finger so that may have something to do with it.

Which do you play @MandyH. That may have a big influence on which fingering works best.

My default Bb is always A plus the RH side key, and it’s deeply ingrained!

I work on other fingerings if they make more sense - eg I might use the L1 + R1 if I’m moving from F to Bb.

In the piece I posted the photo of, I will instinctively play A + RH side.
Others commented that it might be clumsy to go from E to Bb with that fingering, but so far I haven’t had a problem with it.

Jazzaferri · Sep 15, 2019

As has been said before, as long as the notes come out right how you get them there isn't an issue.

Pete Effamy · Sep 16, 2019

Jazzaferri said:
As has been said before, as long as the notes come out right how you get them there isn't an issue.

Yes. And no. Whilst being a classical clarinet (sorry Pete T!) player for several years I know exactly what Londieux is talking about with his apparent dislike to the 1/1, long Bb. On clarinet, it has a very definite darker colour than the slightly bright side Bb. This might fit the nature of a piece that you are playing. It also has more resistance, which can be really good in having to play ppp especially as a first note of a phrase. Not always, of course, but it's a useful one. In fact, the opening several minutes of the Copland Concerto is one such place for this.

With jazz and pop music we tend to rejoice in any note colour changes over the horn, whereas the classical player will try to eliminate these at all costs.

But, with the point you are making @Jazzaferri being merely about moving around the horn, yes you are right.

jbtsax · Sep 16, 2019

Rousseau recommends choosing the 1 + 2 (or 1 + 5) fingering over the 1 + 1whenever possible because the tone and pitch are better in his experience. An example where both would work is a trill from Bb to B.

Pete Effamy · Sep 16, 2019

jbtsax said:
Rousseau recommends choosing the 1 + 2 (or 1 + 5) fingering over the 1 + 1whenever possible because the tone and pitch are better in his experience. An example where both would work is a trill from Bb to B.

1+5? C key? Must try that. Never heard that one.

jbtsax · Sep 16, 2019

Pete Effamy said:
1+5? C key? Must try that. Never heard that one.

Sorry for the confusion. I mean the first finger on top and the middle finger (F#) on the bottom using the numbers 1, 2, 3 for the left hand and 4, 5, 6 for the right hand. Any key on the lower stack produces a Bb when added to the first finger on top, but each one has a slightly different pitch and timbre.

Pete Effamy · Sep 17, 2019

jbtsax said:
Sorry for the confusion. I mean the first finger on top and the middle finger (F#) on the bottom using the numbers 1, 2, 3 for the left hand and 4, 5, 6 for the right hand. Any key on the lower stack produces a Bb when added to the first finger on top, but each one has a slightly different pitch and timbre.

Tbf you did use 1+2 but I read it too quickly and only registered the 1+5.

6441 · Sep 17, 2019

You know I haven't been playing long, but I am itching to say that I secretly use the bis key in all kinds of funky ways because I learned it before taking lessons. Then I found out you shouldn't use it in faster chromatic passages for obvious reasons. I fight to use to the side key fingering in some scales, but in funky licks, I almost always do the slide a couple of you have mentioned. It feels and sounds better to me. I like the LH1 and RH1 for bends up to the B from Bb. 'Split" sounds good to me as a term.

Pete Effamy · Sep 17, 2019

6441 said:
You know I haven't been playing long, but I am itching to say that I secretly use the bis key in all kinds of funky ways because I learned it before taking lessons. Then I found out you shouldn't use it in faster chromatic passages for obvious reasons. I fight to use to the side key fingering in some scales, but in funky licks, I almost always do the slide a couple of you have mentioned. It feels and sounds better to me. I like the LH1 and RH1 for bends up to the B from Bb. 'Split" sounds good to me as a term.

Us 'schooled' people often use words like "shouldn't". It gets drummed into us. Of course, it doesn't matter if you gain a good facility anywhere on the instrument with any fingering (as long as the sound fits).

Jack Brymer once said "to be a good clarinettist you have to be an inventor of fingerings". He's mainly talking classically, and the homogeny of sound between notes, and registers. I would imagine that classical sax players say the same thing - I've just never studied/played classically on the sax. Tbh, I don't particularly like its classical voice - it sounds far too restricted and tame for my tastes.

I've seen lots of people of all standards roll off the bis key in the way you use it. As a teacher, it worries me far less than students that have only found 1/1 Bb, use it everywhere and make little attempt to learn the bis and side key fingerings. Flute players are very adept with the 1/1 of course, but you can very much hear A to Bb with the 1/1 and it drives me nuts. Each to their own.... 😡