Sheet Music Londeix alternative fingerings

MandyH

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I am working on the Bach Cello Suite No1, Prelude, arranged by Londeix (publ Lemoine)
Londeix suggests alternative fingerings for notes here and there in the sheet music.

I have asked the Internet and established what each means, but .... At one point he uses the symbol "P" under a Bb between a low E and a C (3rd space)

According to the internet "P" means Bbis.
I thought Bbis was holding down both the B and the bis with the index finger of the left hand? But it makes most sense to me that it would mean a "long Bb" ie index finger of each hand in this case.

Does anyone have a definitive answer on what Londeix means by "P"?

TBH I am most likely to play that Bb as A with the RH side key anyway!

image.jpeg
 

Pete Effamy

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I am working on the Bach Cello Suite No1, Prelude, arranged by Londeix (publ Lemoine)
Londeix suggests alternative fingerings for notes here and there in the sheet music.

I have asked the Internet and established what each means, but .... At one point he uses the symbol "P" under a Bb between a low E and a C (3rd space)

According to the internet "P" means Bbis.
I thought Bbis was holding down both the B and the bis with the index finger of the left hand? But it makes most sense to me that it would mean a "long Bb" ie index finger of each hand in this case.

Does anyone have a definitive answer on what Londeix means by "P"?

TBH I am most likely to play that Bb as A with the RH side key anyway!

View attachment 13369
A long Bb might make sense after the E, but not with a C after the Bb.
 

David Roach

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If my memory serves correctly, and it has been a while since I practised the Londiex 'Mechanisms', he tends to avoid the 'long' Bb unless absolutely necessary (sometimes called the 'forked' Bb - i.e. a Bb played with any of the fingers in the RH) because of it's lack of tonal clarity. As @Chilli says 'P' means the Bb bis key for sure.
 

Pete Effamy

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If my memory serves correctly, and it has been a while since I practised the Londiex 'Mechanisms', he tends to avoid the 'long' Bb unless absolutely necessary (sometimes called the 'forked' Bb - i.e. a Bb played with any of the fingers in the RH) because of it's lack of tonal clarity. As @Chilli says 'P' means the Bb bis key for sure.
Hi David, I’m amazed by Londeix stating that the long Bb lacks tonal clarity. I could always hear my students use it in the “wrong “ places as the transition between notes wasn’t smooth, but blown properly, tonally why should it be so different?
In fact, I’d say that greater care needs to be taken with regard to side C. But for me, one of the worst notes on the sax is front high E. It’s fantastic when going through it en route to the altissimo but it sucks as a long note, and to me just sounds plain wrong. I guess this is lessened by certain setups and exacerbated by others.
What do you think?
 

Ne0Wolf7

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P does mean bis.
It is supposed to be pressed in conjunction with the B key using the index finger. That being said, I totally ignore that convention when playing the cadenza to the Glasnuov concerto.
In this case, there is no good fingering to use, because going from playing a low E to using a side key is awkward and all of your other options require a "flip flop" of the index and middle fingers. Like David Roach said, Londiex doesn't like using long Bb, so he put the bis fingering in.
 

jbtsax

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According to Teal the most logical fingering for Bb which precedes or follows a C is the 1,2,side key. Using the bis in this finger pattern creates what I call a "flip flop" between the first and second fingers (I am aware there are some proud "flip floppers" in this forum.) ;)

The long Bb fingering in that passage makes no sense at all. I would conclude that "P" means "pick the fingering that works for you" and move on. :)
 

David Roach

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Hi David, I’m amazed by Londeix stating that the long Bb lacks tonal clarity. I could always hear my students use it in the “wrong “ places as the transition between notes wasn’t smooth, but blown properly, tonally why should it be so different?
In fact, I’d say that greater care needs to be taken with regard to side C. But for me, one of the worst notes on the sax is front high E. It’s fantastic when going through it en route to the altissimo but it sucks as a long note, and to me just sounds plain wrong. I guess this is lessened by certain setups and exacerbated by others.
What do you think?
As I remember it, Londeix only uses the long Bb when nothing else makes sense. In fact in all my years of playing I have only once come across a passage that absolutely demanded it. But different horns make that fingering sound differently, which could account for Londeix reluctance to use it. I do find the long Bb a bit less focused than Bis or side.

As regards side C - which again, I hardly use - at least the aperture can be adjusted to suit a particular horn and player.

Front E is a different matter. On soprano it tends to be a touch flat which can be really useful, on alto I find it pretty much in tune, but on both sop and alto I find it a good quality strong and stable (!) note. On tenor, it's a different matter and I really never use it if possible, it's an awful note. Sadly palm key top E is a bad note on almost every sax I have played, but at least it's a clear note, it just needs to be voiced properly. Palm keys are really susceptible to influence by mouthpieces.
 

Pete Effamy

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As I remember it, Londeix only uses the long Bb when nothing else makes sense. In fact in all my years of playing I have only once come across a passage that absolutely demanded it. But different horns make that fingering sound differently, which could account for Londeix reluctance to use it. I do find the long Bb a bit less focused than Bis or side.

As regards side C - which again, I hardly use - at least the aperture can be adjusted to suit a particular horn and player.

Front E is a different matter. On soprano it tends to be a touch flat which can be really useful, on alto I find it pretty much in tune, but on both sop and alto I find it a good quality strong and stable (!) note. On tenor, it's a different matter and I really never use it if possible, it's an awful note. Sadly palm key top E is a bad note on almost every sax I have played, but at least it's a clear note, it just needs to be voiced properly. Palm keys are really susceptible to influence by mouthpieces.
That’s interesting.
Are you mainly playing a classical setup? My tenor front E is a better blend of note with regard to the rest of the instrument than my Mk 6 alto. Palm E’s are fine. Perhaps the mouthpiece setup as you say.
Agree with use of long Bb, I always hated teaching flute players who would not change to either B Bis or side fingerings - was most of them!
 

jbtsax

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The terminology used in this thread is different from what I am familiar with. The Bb played with the first finger of each hand is what I call the 1 and 1 Bb. The first finger on top and the second finger on the bottom similarly is called the 1 and 2 fingering.

The name "long fingering" in my experience refers to the middle C# played with the low C# fingering plus the octave key. In "that sense" the "long Bb" would be the low Bb fingering plus the octave key.

Now that I have had time to think through the use of the Bis in the musical example, it makes more sense. As @Pete Effamy pointed out that Bb is preceded by an E which makes the Bis a more logical choice. For the other Bb's going to and from the note C, the 1,2 side fingering is the most logical choice.
 

David Roach

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That’s interesting.
Are you mainly playing a classical setup?
No, hardly at all on alto and tenor these days (although I used to, a lot) but yes, partly, on soprano. But, I have to say that as long as the mouthpieces are well made and not too extreme, that the characteristics of my horns do not change much. I think a long flexible facing can increase the tendency to sharpness in the upper registers, as can a very high baffle that has been badly conceived in relation to mouthpiece volume (in terms of size, not amplitude I mean). I find I can play, say, a Phil-Tone Mosaic, or a Drake Contemporary - two quite different sounding pieces - and still get stable results if both pieces are set up to suit my lip.

My tenor front E is a better blend of note with regard to the rest of the instrument than my Mk 6 alto. Palm E’s are fine. Perhaps the mouthpiece setup as you say.
I think Mk6s are entirely a different ball game and tend to vary more between individual horns. I play for the most part modern Selmers, and they play very differently I think.
 

Pete Thomas

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The terminology used in this thread is different from what I am familiar with.
You heard the term "fork" fingering back in 2008 and 2011 in these threads you participated in



The Bb played with the first finger of each hand is what I call the 1 and 1 Bb
I would not call it 1 and 1 as that would imply you would use 1 and 2 when meaning (LH 1 + RH2). I and 2 could imply a standard A fingering.

If we are going to number that fingering I'd prefer either LH1+ RH1 or 1 and 4 or 1 and 5 (as suggested by Larry Teal)

But I would prefer to say forked tor fork Bb, probably only because that is what I first learnt. Although I admit it could be confused with the front (aux) F which is technically forked, but not in the original recorder sense of pressing a lower key down leaving a gap in order to play a semitone lower.

But in the words of Eleanour Shellstrop "We are all forked"
 

Pete Effamy

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In my clarinet upbringing (no lessons on sax, loads on clarinet) I also used 1 and 1, 1 and 2. Also long Bb. As opposed to side Bb. Forked fingering was for the chromatic B chalumeau/F# clarion.
 

Jazzaferri

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Fascinating discussion.

I know my technique is probably weird but I use the Bis key almost exclusively even in fast 16ths. I mainly use side Bb as a chromatic trill key though when I practice I do try to remember to use it more normally. When I stop thinking I go back to Bis default. I dont think I have ever used fork Bb except in practicing.

I play flat finger so that may have something to do with it.

Which do you play @MandyH. That may have a big influence on which fingering works best.
 

jbtsax

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I would not call it 1 and 1 as that would imply you would use 1 and 2 when meaning (LH 1 + RH2). I and 2 could imply a standard A fingering.
If we are going to number that fingering I'd prefer either LH1+ RH1 or 1 and 4 or 1 and 5 (as suggested by Larry Teal)
Fair enough. Going back and reading the SOTW posts on this topic I notice that some use the terms 1 + 2 and 1 + 3. Perhaps these are the better choices.
But in the words of Eleanour Shellstrop "We are all forked"
Some of us on the other hand are "all forked up". :p
 

Pete Effamy

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So what is the difference between long Bb and 1 and 1?
As per usual with many things in music, there is terminology that can easily be misconbobulated. I guess, like piano, finger numbers were used but not the number of fingers. So: 1 and 2 being 1st on top hand plus 2nd on bottom hand.
 

Pete Effamy

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I would not call it 1 and 1 as that would imply you would use 1 and 2 when meaning (LH 1 + RH2). I and 2 could imply a standard A fingering.
Now this I would find confusing. That's like Blackadder asking how many sheep there were (3) and Baldrick answering: 2.... and that one over there. Surely 1 and 1 makes more sense as 1st finger up top and 1st finger down below. Otherwise, as you suggest, it means one, plus another.
.....no you're right. The more you think about it, it's all confusing. Just what I grew up with and all of my clarinet teachers used it as the same language. I suppose they were all from the same place though - two had direct links to Brymer and also to Thea King.
 

Pete Effamy

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Fascinating discussion.

I know my technique is probably weird but I use the Bis key almost exclusively even in fast 16ths. I mainly use side Bb as a chromatic trill key though when I practice I do try to remember to use it more normally. When I stop thinking I go back to Bis default. I dont think I have ever used fork Bb except in practicing.

I play flat finger so that may have something to do with it.

Which do you play @MandyH. That may have a big influence on which fingering works best.
Agreed. The only time I don't is when preceded or followed by a B natural.
 
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