Playing the saxophone Let's talk about "blue notes"...

[rhysonsax]

How about this for Jazzers playing the blues ?

View: https://youtu.be/A5RnUu4qv6c?list=RDA5RnUu4qv6c


I remember hearing a radio programme with Dick Heckstall-Smith (British Blues, Jazz and Rock saxophonist) talking, where he spoke about this particular track and contrasted the solo played by Sonny Rollins (listen from 5:30 - authentic blues in his view) with those of Sonny Stitt (from 7:41) and Dizzy (both of which he considered less authentic). As far as I remember he didn't mention the wonderful piano playing of Ray Bryant who certainly knew how to play the blues (and a lot more besides).

Maybe it's a question of degree and taste.

Rhys

 

[Pete Effamy]

How about this for Jazzers playing the blues ?

View: https://youtu.be/A5RnUu4qv6c?list=RDA5RnUu4qv6c


I remember hearing a radio programme with Dick Heckstall-Smith (British Blues, Jazz and Rock saxophonist) talking, where he spoke about this particular track and contrasted the solo played by Sonny Rollins (listen from 5:30 - authentic blues in his view) with those of Sonny Stitt (from 7:41) and Dizzy (both of which he considered less authentic). As far as I remember he didn't mention the wonderful piano playing of Ray Bryant who certainly knew how to play the blues (and a lot more besides).

Maybe it's a question of degree and taste.

Rhys

Yeah, I don’t think we can talk about there not being stringent barriers stylistically in music when we obviously use terminology like “playing the blues”.
I wonder if Parker would have been offended if you’d said that he sounded like a blues player ? He certainly wouldn’t want to be associated with the Swing era musicians - Bebop was a reactionary movement against what they saw as “pop” music.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Ok, go to 2:05 on here where Bird comes in and try to tell me this is not the blues:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pesnDgKRkUQ


I could cite many other examples. There's plenty of blues played in a bebop style that is still the blues.

Sounds like a few bluesy phrases until he got bored and played Parker Bebop with jazz blues changes.

 

[JSL]

Sounds like a few bluesy phrases until he got bored and played Parker Bebop with jazz blues changes.

Yeah, I don’t think we can talk about there not being stringent barriers stylistically in music when we obviously use terminology like “playing the blues”.
I wonder if Parker would have been offended if you’d said that he sounded like a blues player ? He certainly wouldn’t want to be associated with the Swing era musicians - Bebop was a reactionary movement against what they saw as “pop” music.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but I couldn't disagree more. Parker certainly wasn't 'bored' with anything he was playing in that clip. And he simply went on to embellish the blues in the brilliant way he did with anything he played. I'm also pretty sure Bird would be insulted if someone told him he wasn't a blues player. He was a great bluesman. And I don't think many would call the blues 'pop music'.

I just have a different take on all of this. To me, blues is jazz. To quote myself from the other sax forum, "Jazz without the blues is like BBQ without the sauce". And sure, the term 'jazz blues' (or 'bebop blues') is often used to describe blues played with added chords, altered chords, ii-V-I turnarounds, and 'bebop' embellishment. But it's still the blues when it's played with blues phrases & feel. And there are also plenty of blues tunes played by jazz players over the standard I-IV-V 12 bar blues progression. Of course, there is plenty of jazz that is not blues since jazz musicians played music from multiple genres. But even then, a lot of jazz musicians would play with an underlying blues feel.

This goes along with my whole point that the blues is highly versatile and takes a wide variety of styles.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I didn’t call the blues pop music, I was talking about Bebop being a movement against the populist swing era - Benny Goodman, Artie Shaw - even Shaw didn’t much like the way it was going and got out of it.

Rhys used the word authenticity. The point I made about Parker in that solo was that he quickly reverted to Bebop language, and that isn’t blues , any more than BB King being Bebop.

 

[JSL]

How about this for Jazzers playing the blues ?

Yeah, rhysonsax, that's definitely the blues. "After Hours". And it's a standard 12-bar blues. Both Sonny Rollins & Sonny Stitt played the hell out of the blues on that one.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Yeah, rhysonsax, that's definitely the blues. "After Hours". And it's a standard 12-bar blues. Both Sonny Rollins & Sonny Stitt played the hell out of the blues on that one.

We hear differently then. Rollins yes, very very blues; Stitt - Bebop

 

[JSL]

I didn’t call the blues pop music, I was talking about Bebop being a movement against the populist swing era

True. But the beboppers (and that term didn't exist when they started out) didn't abandon the blues. They simply embellished it. I will agree with you on one thing, though. There are plenty of blues styles where playing in a heavy bebop style wouldn't be appropriate. If you're playing with a 'down home' electric blues band in the Chicago Blues style, using a lot of bebop phrasing wouldn't fit in at all. You could certainly use a few chromatic elements that fit in, but not to any excess. But in that rendition of "After Hours" in the clip rhysonsax posted, Stitt's bebop style fit right in just fine.

I guess we have a very different definition the blues. You see it as a much more restricted genre than I do. That's fine with me.

 

[Pete Effamy]

There are plenty of blues styles where playing in a heavy bebop style wouldn't be appropriate.

Yeah this is me really. I’m not denying blues elements all over the shop in jazz, it’s just that I don’t believe that when someone is plugged in to a genre, they automatically become a player of that genre. I have to defer to your knowledge of Parker’s upbringing, and perhaps he might happily “throttle back” on the bebop, but I don’t think such examples like Stitt playing a few bluesy bars before launching into his usual bebop faire is Stitt playing the blues.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I guess we have a very different definition the blues. You see it as a much more restricted genre than I do. That's fine with me.

It's a tricky one - I also think of (at least) two genres so Parker and Stitt are not the same genre as Howling Wolf or Tampa Red. Then of course there's jump blues.

If I think of a blues band, they just play blues. And probably mostly 12 bar blues with a backbeat or shuffle. And if the guitarist is late, you just hope they don't get waylaid at the crossroads.

I have to defer to your knowledge of Parker’s upbringing, and perhaps he might happily “throttle back” on the bebop,

Interesting that Parker, Coltrane and Ornette Coleman all had big blues roots.

 

[JSL]

It's a tricky one - I also think of (at least) two genres so Parker and Stitt are not the same genre as Howling Wolf or Tampa Red. Then of course there's jump blues.

If I think of a blues band, they just play blues. And probably mostly 12 bar blues with a backbeat or shuffle. And if the guitarist is late, you just hope they don't get waylaid at the crossroads.

+1. Definitely there's more than one approach to the blues, different styles, which was my main point initially. Jump blues, to my mind, is infused with the swing element and yeah, not the same as Parker or Howling Wolf. I love playing the jump blues style; when I had my band we played quite a few tunes in that style. And hey, we even played some Fats Domino tunes, which you'll appreciate. And no, we really didn't play bebop, although I found I could use some bebop licks over a ii-V change, which worked pretty well in some jump blues tunes.

But if I go to a blues jam or play with a 'blues band', it'll mostly be the 12-bar backbeat or shuffle blues, and I sure wouldn't play bebop in that setting. Maybe that's what @Pete Effamy is on about and we aren't so far from agreeing after all. Sometimes I wonder why I spend so much time working on bebop lines, enclosures, passing tones, altered chords, etc. I hardly ever use any of that in the blues, R&B, or funk I'm usually playing. But I sure do use the 'blue notes' though, to bring this back on the main topic.

 

[JSL]

Ok, just for fun, and it was fun, I played along to the "After Hours" track. And I got to say there was a whole lot of authentic, greasy, flat out standard blues happening in there. Both Rollins and Stitt smeared all kinds of blue notes around. And yeah, Stitt launched some fast (bebop?) lines here and there, but he kept coming back to super gritty, low-down blues phrases. Most of what was being played on that cut would fit in with any blues band playing that tune. I really love the intro & outro licks. They are straight out of the blues vocabulary. I'm going to revisit that tune and check out some other versions. Thanks for posting that clip @Pete Effamy! It added a lot to this thread.

 

[rhysonsax]

It was me that posted After Hours !

A favourite of mine since 1981 when I discovered Sonny Rollins and Ray Bryant, since then my favourite tenor player and favourite pianist.

I have transcriptions of the solos played by both Sonnys and have also got piano sheet music for After Hours as written by Avery Parrish.

Rhys

 

[JSL]

It was me that posted After Hours !

Oh, of course (I got it right the first time I mentioned it). My mistake and I apologize. It was Pete Effamy who re-posted the clip. Since it seems to be too late to edit my last post, I'll 'correct' it as best I can here:

Thanks @rhysonsax for posting that recording of After Hours.

And yeah, Ray Bryant's playing on piano was fantastic on there. He reaches deep into the blues! I don't think I ever saw Ray live, but I discovered Sonny Rollins way back in '69 (I was a senior in high school) when I saw him play solo at the Greek Theater Berkeley Jazz Fest. He brought the house down, got a long (5 minutes?) standing ovation, and came back on and played for another 15 or 20 minutes. One of the most amazing performances I've ever seen, and over the years I spent countless hours in jazz clubs seeing many of the greatest players, including both Dizzy and Sonny Stitt on more than one occasion.

 

[rhysonsax]

No problem !

I saw Sonny maybe seven or eight times when he played in London from about 1985 to 2000. Although his bands were nowhere like his level, he was magisterial every time.

I collected Ray Bryant records that cover the whole of his career and was lucky enough to see him playing solo in London one time in a small club (I think it was called the Bass Clef and was run by bassist Peter Ind). Ray was great playing solo and here he is on a live recording playing another blues.

View: https://youtu.be/xlazTznVW4E?si=5QWdD1EJUFhN2u1g


Rhys

 

[turf3]

Flatted thirds, fifths, etc. are NOT blue notes. They're flatted thirds, fifths, etc. They can be fully justified with standard Western harmony.

Blue notes are notes that could be called "microtonal" notes. They're most commonly seen at the third and fifth where they're a note partway between the minor and major pitch. This comes about from the same impetus as so many pentatonic practices, the feeling that half steps need to be avoided. If you have a major scale and play the major third, there's a half step to the fourth; if you play the minor third there's a half step to the second, so you play something in between.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Blue notes are notes that could be called "microtonal" notes.

Yes these are blue notes, but so are actual flatted 3rds 5ths and 7th in the context of blues. There's no rule saying a blues musican can't sing or play a flat 3rd that is not microtonal.

Try telling Champion Jack Dupree, Otis Span or Fats Domino they aren't playing blues or blue notes because their piano is in tune.

But you are correct in that a flat note often is between major and minor 3rd or 7th, but that doesn't stop a blues musician playing an "in tune" blue note.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Try telling Champion Jack Dupree, Otis Span or Fats Domino they aren't playing blues or blue notes because their piano is in tune.

And of course pianists (and guitarists) have the advantage of playing major and minor at the same time.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Flatted thirds, fifths, etc. are NOT blue notes. They're flatted thirds, fifths, etc. They can be fully justified with standard Western harmony.

Blue notes are notes that could be called "microtonal" notes. They're most commonly seen at the third and fifth where they're a note partway between the minor and major pitch. This comes about from the same impetus as so many pentatonic practices, the feeling that half steps need to be avoided. If you have a major scale and play the major third, there's a half step to the fourth; if you play the minor third there's a half step to the second, so you play something in between.

In the context of how we all communicate music ie definite pitches, they are, and have to be. They are still written down on manuscript as those pitches. Through our musical intelligence / interpretation we manipulate the notes microtonally as you say, but there’s no definitive manipulation to a definitive amount of microtonalism, so explanations are impossible.

And as Pete says, they’re obviously fixed for keyboard players, and they still sound great playing the blues.

Perhaps for a more comfortable definition it could be said that blues note occur on the b3, b5 & b7 - or some kind of wording.. but people that know what they are already know what is meant (and don’t usually take against the definition).

 

[Pete Thomas]

Perhaps for a more comfortable definition it could be said that blues note occur on the b3, b5 & b7 - or some kind of wording.. but people that know what they are already

I think a good way to say it is

• b3, b7 and b5 can be defined as blue(s) notes
• However, blue notes are very often intonation tendencies and can be anywhere between the non-flattened and (semitone) flattened versions of the 3rd, 5th and 7th.