Playing the saxophone Learn to play by ear or by reading music

[Pete Thomas]

What it means is that the title implies that you have to choose to do one, or the other. If you read, you can't play by ear. Or if you play by ear, you can't read. This is simply not true. I won't bore the readers with even a brief list of players who can/could play by ear and sight read fluently. Both.

I think the poll question beneath the title makes it clear than the title that it isn't one or the other. And the discussion throughout the (now 49 pages) has made it clear that they are not mutually exclusive. I'm happy to change the titile if you have any better suggestions. Maybe I could add "or both?"

 

[Targa]

I think the poll question beneath the title makes it clear than the title that it isn't one or the other. And the discussion throughout the (now 49 pages) has made it clear that they are not mutually exclusive. I'm happy to change the titile if you have any better suggestions. Maybe I could add "or both?"

But then the title would be undichotomised and the posts about it being false or not would become meaningless.

 

[Wade Cornell]

OK, I understand your meaning, yet it's still an ethnocentric point of view as this is not true in many areas of the world. I also take Skeller's point of view that music education that gave opportunities to learn to read and understand music are not as readily available in the USA as they were 60 to 70 years ago.

However I'm being misquoted as saying that playing by ear is superior. When did I say that? It's just easier for me and other audio learners, to pick up music and remember it compared to reading. And, as said we are a small minority. I also said that having both the ability to play be ear and read is the best of both worlds. Somehow those things got missed? A proficient reader (I wish I was one) can work in big bands and orchestras playing music as written so that complex compositions can be performed with accuracy. Whereas an ear player can improvise without chord charts creatively as long as they can hear the music in their head. They are different skills. If you can master both that's good, however that is not a universal. The very visual learner needs his chord charts to "improvise" and what's often heard can be technically difficult, yet not very creative.

I apologize if I've misunderstood what you were trying to say, yet still see it as trying to express a universal truth. We are not all the same in our abilities to learn and play music and the world has cultures that produce vibrant music which does not have notation. Is their music somehow less valid? Maybe they seem like moot points if one's perspective is just their own culture and you're in the majority that express themselves musically trough visual interpretation?

 

[Grumps]

I started to learn to read and play music (piano) at 6 years old and continued to learn to play woodwind instruments for many years after that. However I was never a great reader. It was only when I took up singing (and was a professional) that I found that I could make music come alive.

I sort of did the reverse. My father was a very, very good piano player. I always tell folks he could have been one of the greatest jazz piano players of all time had he not threw it all away for a career in medicine. I digress...

Anyhow, I grew up with a Steinway baby grand piano in my living room. When home alone, I'd play it. Now I did learn to read music starting around age ten in school band playing saxophone. But I never, ever got the hang of reading two lines at once and one with a different clef sign altogether for piano. It seemed very strange and foreign to me... and still does to this day. So I would just bang on the piano over the years and by the time I was in high school I was putting songs together. Funny thing though, the only things I could play at first were original compositions. I still don't read piano music, but if given enough time I could figure things out by ear or use tabs. But it takes way more time and work, so I no longer even attempt to play keys on gigs. Back in the 80's it was easy, because I wrote the vast majority of our stuff. By the time I'd bring it to the other guys, I'd already had the keyboard part down because of it.

A few years back when my father was still alive and living in an assisted living facility, he rolls into the community room one morning and I was in there on the piano. He wheels in, comes up next to me and says, "I didn't know you played the piano..."

 

[Mix O Lydian]

A couple of months back I started a discussion about learning to improvise and feeling that I wanted to follow an ear led approach rather than the way I was being taught at the time, ( a kind of "paint by numbers", "play this scale over that chord" approach).

A few months down the line I can honestly say the ear led approach is working so much better for me when it comes to improvising.

I can also read (and write) music, and this has been useful in ensemble situations, especially when rehearsing.

I'm going to say that for me, it depends on the situation but if I had to call it....ear would win! Music is, erm, aural after all 😉

 

[skeller047]

I think written music is like the written word. You have to use your imagination when reading it, and when reading aloud (I.e. playing), the delivery is vital. Dynamics, tempo, articulation, that kind of thing.

The ear is king because the nerves from the ear feed into the lowest levels of our nervous system (what I call the “lizard brain”) and also the highest levels (visual cortex). Processing of auditory information is done at multiple places simultaneously. That is why it is so powerful to us, and why learning “by ear” sticks with us and feels more complete.

 

[Zasterz]

I think written music is like the written word. You have to use your imagination when reading it, and when reading aloud (I.e. playing), the delivery is vital. Dynamics, tempo, articulation, that kind of thing.

The ear is king because the nerves from the ear feed into the lowest levels of our nervous system (what I call the “lizard brain”) and also the highest levels (visual cortex). Processing of auditory information is done at multiple places simultaneously. That is why it is so powerful to us, and why learning “by ear” sticks with us and feels more complete.

Learning by ear doesn’t feel more complete to me. I would never want to learn Debussy’s piano works by ear, for example. I don’t want to internalize anyone else’s interpretation. For important literature I want to use my own imagination, not someone else’s. I don’t want to listen to the audiobook version. Reading is about bringing yourself to meet a work. Another person’s reading is about their life, their emphasis, their resonances, not mine.

The time I’ve spent immersed in a page of text, making it into sound, like images coming to life when you read Dostoevsky or whoever, these are some of the best experiences we have access to as human beings, as far as I’m concerned. I do plenty of playing by ear as well. I would never waste my time reading a Charlie Parker transcription, for example- it’s all plainly audible on the recordings.

I don’t crown either my ear or my eye as “king”, personally- I’m a whole person. Why would I want to reduce the full sum of what capabilities I have?

 

[Wade Cornell]

Learning by ear doesn’t feel more complete to me. I would never want to learn Debussy’s piano works by ear, for example. I don’t want to internalize anyone else’s interpretation. For important literature I want to use my own imagination, not someone else’s. I don’t want to listen to the audiobook version. Reading is about bringing yourself to meet a work. Another person’s reading is about their life, their emphasis, their resonances, not mine.

The time I’ve spent immersed in a page of text, making it into sound, like images coming to life when you read Dostoevsky or whoever, these are some of the best experiences we have access to as human beings, as far as I’m concerned. I do plenty of playing by ear as well. I would never waste my time reading a Charlie Parker transcription, for example- it’s all plainly audible on the recordings.

I don’t crown either my ear or my eye as “king”, personally- I’m a whole person. Why would I want to reduce the full sum of what capabilities I have?

Good for you and please understand that you are fortunate to be able to enjoy both means of playing. Some of us do NOT have this opportunity. Very auditory people (I'm one) will never be able to read music and give it "life". However if I know the music or can understand where it's going, I can play it with life and interpret it as a distinct individual. People in other cultures also do NOT have traditions of written music. They have not "reduced the full sum of their capabilities" and are instead making the most of what they have.

I'm not saying one is better than the other as each have their place. However during this recent discourse when I've heard an obviously visual person saying they improvise using chord notation, that's NOT being able to play by ear.

Those who can truly do both can celebrate their achievement, but please not by looking down at the rest of us who are limited by our capabilities or culture. A great reader or ear player may be far better player in their mode than someone who can do both just adequately. It's not just a matter of practice, it's how some of us are "hard wired" or our culture. It's up to us as individuals to (as Johnny Mercer said) ""ac-cent-tchu-ate the positive, E-lim-i-nate the negative" And don't mess with Mr in between!

 

[Zasterz]

Good for you and please understand that you are fortunate to be able to enjoy both means of playing. Some of us do NOT have this opportunity. Very auditory people (I'm one) will never be able to read music and give it "life". However if I know the music or can understand where it's going, I can play it with life and interpret it as a distinct individual. People in other cultures also do NOT have traditions of written music. They have not "reduced the full sum of their capabilities" and are instead making the most of what they have.

I'm not saying one is better than the other as each have their place. However during this recent discourse when I've heard an obviously visual person saying they improvise using chord notation, that's NOT being able to play by ear.

Those who can truly do both can celebrate their achievement, but please not by looking down at the rest of us who are limited by our capabilities or culture. A great reader or ear player may be far better player in their mode than someone who can do both just adequately. It's not just a matter of practice, it's how some of us are "hard wired" or our culture. It's up to us as individuals to (as Johnny Mercer said) ""ac-cent-tchu-ate the positive, E-lim-i-nate the negative" And don't mess with Mr in between!

Sorry, the “learning styles” classification of human ability you refer to is widely regarded as unsupported by any scientific evidence. It is certainly not established fact.

Learning Styles as a Myth

Despite its popularity, instructors are encouraged to move beyond learning style “neuromyths” and use evidence-based strategies for teaching.

poorvucenter.yale.edu

View: https://youtu.be/sIv9rz2NTUk?si=fPRa6j0hH4DR5Wbm


This is not to say that I believe all good musicians must be good readers. On the contrary, I personally know and work with many who don’t (especially guitar players.)

 

[JSL]

Very auditory people (I'm one) will never be able to read music and give it "life".

The ear is king because the nerves from the ear feed into the lowest levels of our nervous system (what I call the “lizard brain”) and also the highest levels (visual cortex). Processing of auditory information is done at multiple places simultaneously. That is why it is so powerful to us, and why learning “by ear” sticks with us and feels more complete.

Both of the above quotes ring true for me. Time and again, I've found that simply looking at a musical phrase on a sheet of paper and playing it down, unless it's a relatively simple phrase (and sometimes even then), then listening to a recording of that same phrase by an accomplished musician (say, Dexter Gordon, Sonny Rollins, or any other jazz/blues great), I find that my first take, prior to listening to the phrase, lacked the proper interpretation or 'full life' that I could do only after hearing it. (Apologies for that somewhat convoluted sentence)

At this point, I am able to impart a 'swing feel' or 'funk feel' to some written phrases, but I'm still way better off after hearing the music. I can also come up with my own phrases, adding the interpretation/feel I want, when doing it by ear. Then if I write it down, I can 'see' (sort of) how it goes. But overall, I'm better off playing by ear than reading. Others may have a totally different experience, and that's fine. Gotta find out what works best for you.

 

[Zasterz]

listening to a recording of that same phrase by an accomplished musician (say, Dexter Gordon, Sonny Rollins, or any other jazz/blues great), I find that my first take, prior to listening to the phrase, lacked the proper interpretation

That’s because we’re talking about two different activities. Interpretation vs imitation. If you saw the words “say hello to my little friend” you could read it any number of ways, but you would be unlikely to sound the same as Pacino. That’s not because the “ear is king” or you’re more “auditory than visual”. It’s because you’re trying to imitate a particular expression that can only be done by listening to a specific performance.

When Pacino got the script and came up with his interpretation, he surely didn’t need someone else to read the script aloud for him. (I’m guessing he would have found that counterproductive actually.) That’s not because his “eye” is better than yours, it’s because he was engaged in a totally different task- take a script and put life into it, give it personality, stylize it. It’s the difference between reading Bach and coming up with your own way of performing it vs. trying to play it like Glenn Gould. For the latter, obviously you have to listen to his version, most likely many times repeatedly.

 

[Pete Effamy]

That’s because we’re talking about two different activities. Interpretation vs imitation. If you saw the words “say hello to my little friend” you could read it any number of ways, but you would be unlikely to sound the same as Pacino. That’s not because the “ear is king” or you’re more “auditory than visual”. It’s because you’re trying to imitate a particular expression that can only be done by listening to a specific performance.

When Pacino got the script and came up with his interpretation, he surely didn’t need someone else to read the script aloud for him. (I’m guessing he would have found that counterproductive actually.) That’s not because his “eye” is better than yours, it’s because he was engaged in a totally different task- take a script and put life into it, give it personality, stylize it. It’s the difference between reading Bach and coming up with your own way of performing it vs. trying to play it like Glenn Gould. For the latter, obviously you have to listen to his version, most likely many times repeatedly.

Completely agree. I had thought the same thing too about reading, and how some people don’t need several passes at a piece of text in order to impart it as if they’d had the thoughts themselves.

Many people don’t speak in public too well though, putting on an unrecognisable other voice with strange intonation and nuance.

I used to have bi-weekly clarinet lessons in my mid-teens with an eminent British player. On occasion that I brought in something that was non-standard repertoire he’d sightread the piece better than my two weeks of work. Of course, it had musicality too.

We all have things that we can do and things that are either a bit dodgy or downright awful. My single articulation speed at best was only just over the line for pro classical standards. I can’t double tongue, as the fix is, for some.

That’s just one thing..

 

[ghostler]

Many people don’t speak in public too well though, putting on an unrecognisable other voice with strange intonation and nuance.

That was the reaction that I got from the single girls near my age at my church near the Univ., until one day they found I just graduated with a degree in Mechanical Engineering and had several job offers from various aerospace companies and government laboratories in California and Washington state. Then interestingly their voice took on a slightly different timbre. (Although true I say this with a sense of facetious.)

We all have things that we can do and things that are either a bit dodgy or downright awful. My single articulation speed at best was only just over the line for pro classical standards. I can’t double tongue, as the fix is, for some.

I've never been really good at it, taught "tuh-tuh-kah, tuh-tuh-kah", etc. I can tongue fairly fast, just fortunate that not many pieces of music have required it.

 

[JSL]

That was the reaction that I got from the single girls near my age at my church

I'd suggest staying away from those church girls; try a pub (bar) instead! 🙂

 

[Dr G]

That was the reaction that I got from the single girls near my age at my church near the Univ., until one day they found I just graduated with a degree in Mechanical Engineering and had several job offers from various aerospace companies and government laboratories in California and Washington state. Then interestingly their voice took on a slightly different timbre. (Although true I say this with a sense of facetious.)

I bettin’ they were swooning over the size of your pocket protector and the slide rule hanging from your belt. And those thick black rims on your glasses? Yowza!

Yeah, engineers get all the chicks. How many baby mommas has Elon Musk had?

 

[Ballymenaboy]

I recently played alto in a big jazz band for a few years and had a steep learning curve to get back up to speed on sight reading however when it came to solos I totally had to disregard dots or chords and just played whatever connect my brain,mouth and hands. If I had to think about chords etc then it would have been difficult to solo.

 

[Zasterz]

Yeah, engineers get all the chicks. How many baby mommas has Elon Musk had?

Elon Musk is not an engineer*, he’s just a rich dude. In case you haven’t noticed, it’s not terribly unusual for rich dudes to “get chicks.” 😄

*well, unless you mean “financial engineering”.

 

[ghostler]

Elon Musk is not an engineer*, he’s just a rich dude. In case you haven’t noticed, it’s not terribly unusual for rich dudes to “get chicks.” 😄 *well, unless you mean “financial engineering”.

Elon Musk graduated around 1997 with dual bachelor's degrees in economics and physics from the University of Pennsylvania. See

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/061015/how-elon-musk-became-elon-musk.asp

Although not "engineering", physics is a related degree. His dad was an electro-mechanical engineer. (Think "Tony Stark" of Iron Man.) 😉

 

[Zasterz]

Elon Musk graduated around 1997 with dual bachelor's degrees in economics and physics from the University of Pennsylvania. See

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/061015/how-elon-musk-became-elon-musk.asp

Although not "engineering", physics is a related degree. His dad was an electro-mechanical engineer. (Think "Tony Stark" of Iron Man.) 😉

Having a “related” bachelor’s degree doesn’t make someone an engineer any more than it makes him a surgeon. There’s a reason different fields are different fields. And last I checked, professional qualifications aren’t hereditary. 😉

 

[ghostler]

Having a “related” bachelor’s degree doesn’t make someone an engineer any more than it makes him a surgeon. There’s a reason different fields are different fields. And last I checked, professional qualifications aren’t hereditary. 😉

Elon's badge to success is his abilities as a general manager. Managers do not do hands on, his employees do. His secret is hiring good people, cultivating an environment of creativity and giving them proper direction and knowing his market. But, a competent manager know a bit about some of the inner workings of his products and services to do that.

We are drifting off-topic. If you want, I can start a DM, or, we can continue to discuss where appropriate.😎