Saxophone beginners Late starters, gas and progress

[Tenor Viol]

Several realities here... as adult later starters, we tend to suffer from the "I should be able to do that" syndrome. Err, no. There's a learning curve and it takes time.

In the real world we have good days and bad days, even very good players have those, just at a different level.

I was working through my organ pieces and I was making some progress. I went to my lesson and played them the worst I'd played them in weeks. Cello and sax for me are the same: good days and bad days.

In the early days, progress tends to be quicker if you keep the variables to a minimum...

 

[cappers]

The one I have is:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ESMTSP--bari-esmtsp-tenor-saxophone-mouthpiece-polished

It is the Esprit and its opening is 0.073" (1.85mm). I am not sure where the 0.085 comes from. I have not experienced the sensation you describe, plays great.

However, if the borrowed one has a greater opening (perhaps an older model? I bought mine new on 11/25/2024), then it may need a softer reed because of the greater tip gap than your 5C. Mine is only 0.002 inches greater than your 5C, hence why I stated that roughly speaking, appears to be equivalent to the 5C.

According to Thomann UK and other suppliers the Bari Esprit tenor mpc is 2.16mm = 0.085". The one I have is the Trevor James variant supplied with their horns.

The Esprit is an easy blow and expressive. But to me, compared to the 5C it sounds less focussed, less smooth, more 'metallic' sounding?.......difficult to describe. I will persevere though as it is more powerful and a bit more flexible than the 5C. I want to try a PPT but not sure if I'm ready; unless I order a custom the smallest is 7*.

 

[cappers]

as adult later starters, we tend to suffer from the "I should be able to do that" syndrome. Err, no. There's a learning curve and it takes time.

True! Having been successful in other areas of life with an ability to absorb new information and techniques easily, there is a tendency to feel 'why am I so slow?' 'I should be able to do this' "if a child can do it...'
Patience and perseverance required as well as putting the ego aside!

 

[SoulMate]

Some days are worse than others. That's life. Sometimes on a bad day, I discovered that I left my swab in the bell. After pulling it out... happy days! But do experiment. Nothing wrong with that as long as you don't become obsessive about it.

 

[cappers]

..... I discovered that I left my swab in the bell. After pulling it out... happy... days!

Been there too, why can't I sound the low notes!
The other day I couldn't play anything....I had left the swab in the neck!

 

[thomsax]

Should the older "beginners" perhaps be encouraged to experiment more?
I am going to very cautiously throw my hat into that ring for the older beginners.
to have serious focus on the fundamentals but feel free to experiment.

I consider myself being "the constant beginner" even if I started to blow sax in 1968! Lots of diffent things happened that made me to halt or slow down the saxophone. Education, work, children, moving, building house, other interests ...... . The last seven years with pandemic and lost of friends was not good for my saxophone life. But I'm back to the saxophone again. I played some sax during the last seven years ..... but without dreams, dedication and devotion and lack of desire to experiment. So I think experiment is important.

 

[mizmar]

One advantage of being a late starter / mature student is you probably don't hang out with other kids, swapping half-truths about gear, TikTok videos etc and have to run home to nag your folks for more cash to keep up with the others....
.... Instead you have forum threads full of personal experiences presented as Universal Truths and can budget your own misdemeanors

 

[thomsax]

But maybe if we try to stick with the one reed and one mouthpiece combo (as is often suggested) for too long, then we actually are shooting ourselves in the proverbial foot?
It is often suggested to pick just one mouthpiece and just one reed strength and to play only that combo diligently for at least one year before making any modifications at all.

I can change reeds and mouthpieces serveral times during a rehearsal or a pub gig. I changed football shoes if it was slippery or too dry, I took another knife if the one I've choicen was not sharp enough .... Sometimes I need a change to a reach my goals.

 

[cappers]

According to Thomann UK and other suppliers the Bari Esprit tenor mpc is 2.16mm = 0.085". The one I have is the Trevor James variant supplied with their horns.

The Esprit is an easy blow and expressive. But to me, compared to the 5C it sounds less focussed, less smooth, more 'metallic' sounding?.......difficult to describe. I will persevere though as it is more powerful and a bit more flexible than the 5C. I want to try a PPT but not sure if I'm ready; unless I order a custom the smallest is 7*.

@ghostler Further to this I found this on the Sweetwater site for the Bari Esprit tenor:

• Instrument:Tenor Saxophone
• Material:Composite
• Finish:Polished
• Tip Opening:0.073" (1.85mm)
• Ligature:Included
• Cap:Included
• Manufacturer Part Number:ESKTSP

The one I have is plastic not composite, matte not polished and has p/n ESMTS

• Material: Plastic
• Particularly suitable for pupils and students
• Tip opening: .085
• Facing length: 20 mm
• Full, vibrant tone
• Easy response
• With ligature and cap

So maybe there are different versions, composite and plastic and the former is 'better'?

 

[thomsax]

Well since I started this older beginner with gas mess thread ---
In hopes it may help another, I will honestly share my continuing adventure as an older beginner:
Today I opened my reed case --
AND -
Yes we elders with gas have the creds to buy a reed case -
And I had noticed that certain reeds from a certain manufacturer were developing a darkness in the heart.
Is that normal?
I did not like my reeds turning black.
But as an older beginner I had no clue what that meant -
Is that normal as reeds age?
Or is that Aspergillosis of the reed?
I tried soaking the black reeds in peroxide.
They turned black again.
So I threw them away.
Perhaps a bit impetuous.
I do not wish to inhale aspergillus spores into my lungs at this age.
Then I opened my reed case today - and one of my reeds had grown grey hairs!
I have grey hair but my reeds should not!
Of course that reed went into the trash.
A little help here please ------
Advice ---
Has this happened to you?
Not Harry Potter but Hairy Reed?
What is the proper course of action?

Wipe of the reed after you've been playing or rinse with lukewarm water and wipe dry. I use basic 2- or 4 reed holders (plastic or aluminium). After I've been playing, I place the reedholders with reeds in a window above a radiator. Good airflow and the bright daylight is also helping up. So I don't store the reeds and mouthpieces in the case. I think a cane reed ( Arondo Donax) is less problem when it comes to bacteria. Cane is organic and is "healing" if there are some minor damage. That's not the case with plastic.

The old reed holders in aluminum are good but they were made when the reeds were shorter. So if you have an alu holder beware that you don't damage the tip of the reed.

 

[ghostler]

So maybe there are different versions, composite and plastic and the former is 'better'?

I went to their website:

Mouthpieces/Synthetic Reeds | Bari Woodwinds Inc. | United States

Bari Woodwinds, Inc Manufacturer of Saxophone and Clarinet Mouthpieces and Synthetic Reeds

www.bariwoodwind.com

Unfortunately, they give no specs on their mouthpieces. They do make other models and some are much more pricey, but it seems their webmaster is asleep at the wheel, without dimensions.

I looked at my Bari box on the shelf, but it gives no dims.

Jody Jazz has saxophone mouthpiece facing charts comparing differet brands:

JodyJazz Facing Charts | Compare Tip Openings Of All Brands

The best sax mouthpiece facing chart that you are likely to find with all JodyJazz models and all other popular brands. Download a printable copy here!

jodyjazz.com

It doesn't show the Bari entry level 0.07 in. opening mouthpiece, but shows their others.

Those are for the various SATB saxes can be downloaded as PDF. General rule is, a wider tip opening requires a softer reed as it needs to flex further to properly vibrate.

 

[skeller047]

The reeds come in a plastic holder. What’s wrong with using them ?

Reeds may warp if stored in the plastic holder they are sold with. The holders are good for protecting reeds, but they aren’t really good for storage.

Additionally, not all reeds come with those, some manufacturers use cardboard holders now. D’Addario is moving in that direction, and Marca never got on the plastic bandwagon. Gonzalez is also cardboard, I believe.

 

[cappers]

....................

Additionally, not all reeds come with those, some manufacturers use cardboard holders now. D’Addario is moving in that direction, and Marca never got on the plastic bandwagon. Gonzalez is also cardboard, I believe.

Alexander reeds come in cardboard sleeves in a lovely old fashioned looking tin......Superial DC 2.5s are my current favourites.

 

[skeller047]

Alexander reeds are made by Marca. I agree they are good 🙂

And the tins are perfect for those apres-gig consumables….

 

[Grumpy]

Perhaps this is an older beginner speaking to other older beginners:
Forgive me -
Yes old guys it is never too late to pick up a sax - they are seriously fun!
May I share please?
Cafe Sharing ---
As an old man...
I had been making progress on my tenor and loving it - or so I thought.........
But today was terrible.
Horrid.
Not going to waste words - but I Just sounded terrible.
I had a favorite reed and it had sounded good in the past.
But today it stunk.
I tried pretty much everything to which I had access: - different reed soaking times - switched mouthpieces - did reed adjustment - changed ligature tightening - repositioned reed - and it all still sounded pretty bad.
I finally switched reeds and it sounded a wee tiny bit better but still truly bad.
This made me wonder:
I know as beginners we suck ----
At least I do.
Honestly we are endeavoring to advance our skills.
But maybe if we try to stick with the one reed and one mouthpiece combo (as is often suggested) for too long, then we actually are shooting ourselves in the proverbial foot?
It is often suggested to pick just one mouthpiece and just one reed strength and to play only that combo diligently for at least one year before making any modifications at all.
That is very sage advice.
But for older players with some experience .......
Even as older beginners maybe we should be experimenting a bit more and changing not only our embouchure but other things as well?

Should the older "beginners" perhaps be encouraged to experiment more?
I am going to very cautiously throw my hat into that ring for the older beginners.
to have serious focus on the fundamentals but feel free to experiment.

Hello
I am nearly 81 and took the sax three years ago. I can say that although I am not much good I thoroughly enjoy playing. Charlie Parker my favourite with Sonny Stitt a close second. Improvisation is my aim but struggling. Some day better than others and some days I almost give up but. Always come back.. I am lucky that I play one day a week with two long time players and they drag me on an a very good teacher.

 

[Tenor Viol]

Some days are worse than others. That's life. Sometimes on a bad day, I discovered that I left my swab in the bell. After pulling it out... happy days! But do experiment. Nothing wrong with that as long as you don't become obsessive about it.

I've left a duster or a pull-through in the bell numerous times....

 

[ghostler]

One advantage of being a late starter / mature student is you probably don't hang out with other kids, swapping half-truths about gear, TikTok videos etc and have to run home to nag your folks for more cash to keep up with the others....

Instead we hang out with the older kids (geezers) swapping half-truths about gear, YouTube videos etc. and slipping things past our spouses ("look what followed me home!") 😉 for more GAS to outdo others.

 

[Tenor Viol]

Instead we hang out with the older kids (geezers) swapping half-truths about gear, YouTube videos etc. and slipping things past our spouses ("look what followed me home!") 😉 for more GAS to outdo others.

Fortunately, being a single person I've never had to say, "It just leapt of the shelf I tell you and fell into the basket..." 😎

 

[mizmar]

Fortunately, being a single person I've never had to say, "It just leapt of the shelf I tell you and fell into the basket..." 😎

You'd'v had to go "the carpenter came to fix the wobbly door hinge and accidentally built a virtual pipe organ"

 

[Ballymenaboy]

As an older beginner and late starter I repeat the words of Tomo Fujita:

"Don't Worry. Don't Compare. Don't Expect Too Fast. Be Kind To Yourself." https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tomo+fujita

I have days when I play and sound awful (or more awful than usual). It generally follows a period of feeling like I'm making some progress, then wham! It all goes out the window.
Sounding bad, messing up the fingerings, forgetting how to read music, scales. Take a deep breath and carry on. You'll probably find that after the 'doldrums' you go up a notch, it's all part of the learning process.

Do you have a teacher? It really helps especially in the early days to ensure bad habits are eliminated and good ones reinforced.

The blackening of reeds does sound like mould but there can be natural discolouration. Grey hairs are mould so binning them was correct. You store them in a reed case but how damp are they? Is it one with a humidifier? I think they encourage mould growth.

Re GAS.....I've been learning since the start of January. The tenor (YTS 25) came with a Yamaha 4C mpc but I switched to a 5C after a month or so. Although my teacher says stick with the 5C for now I'm hankering after something a bit more expressive and 'darker'. I can bend and add nuance to the notes now but feel I can do more. Pushing it on 2.5 reeds it closes up so perhaps a larger tip opening might be in order, but for now I'm staying with the 5C. I borrowed a Bari Esprit tenor mpc tip size 0.085 (0.071 on the 5C) and find it easy to play and a bit more expressive but I don't like the tone, a bit 'brash' to my ears. I won't make any recommendations for mpcs as I'm too green to know what's what.

Good luck, persevere, enjoy the journey. Us oldies can be a bit impatient but when I'm playing time doesn't matter (timing does though!).

Remember today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday