Saxophone beginners Late starters, gas and progress

[Dr G]

Next question from old starter -
As a beginner, I am still spending most of my time on long tones, and various scales. -
Slow scales to focus on tone quality more than fingering alacrity.
And I have noticed something odd......

While playing a D scale for instance - the intonation and quality is consistent throughout the scale - not great - but at least consistent.
Then while playing say an F or a G scale - some of those same notes that previously sounded consistent are no longer sounding consistent.
The intonation is a little off or the timbre is not right.

Had those notes been inconsistent on the same scale, then I might have thought there was an issue with the machine/instrument. Maybe an intermittently leaky pad or what not.
But this is the very same note with the very same fingering, but in a different sequence of notes - and now it sounds 'off'.
And it seems to make this inconsistent sound fairly consistently.

What notes are off?

What horn (brand/model)?

Is there movement in the stacks - loose mechanism?

 

[Pete Thomas]

I wonder if this could be someone who has ears that are very sensitive to pitch - and some notes are OK in one key (re: just intonation) but not OK in another???

 

[skeller047]

It is intonation and timbre both. So yes it sounds out of tune relative to the rest of the scale and it typically sounds what we might call muffled and weak.

Sounds like you might be doing something different when you start on F or G then. Try to be aware of what it is, and then stop doing that.

One interesting exercise to try - play a D scale, and when you get to the note that sounds bad when playing the F scale, switch to F. See if that helps. You never said which notes were good then bad, so I can’t get more specific, but the idea is to isolate the problem.

To me it sounds like you need some quality time concentrating on stabilizing your embouchure, and, probably more important, stabilizing your air.

 

[wakyct]

If you're starting your D scale on low D you might be using more air support to make it sound, and that good air support carries through to the rest of the notes. Try playing the D scale in reverse (from middle D down) like you normally would.

 

[Allophone]

What notes are off?

What horn (brand/model)?

Is there movement in the stacks - loose mechanism?

Thanks for the question -- It is a Yamaha YTS-62 relatively new -
No loose rods -
The note(s) that seems off are the ones with the least closed keys - like d flat which is basically all open.
Going to work on the above suggestions and see how it goes.

 

[Allophone]

You never said which notes were good then bad, so I can’t get more specific

Sorry about that omission - The bad notes(s) seem to be those with the least number of keys being pressed - for instance D flat is often an offender.

 

[ghostler]

It is a Yamaha YTS-62 relatively new

Nice sax.

 

[skeller047]

Sorry about that omission - The bad notes(s) seem to be those with the least number of keys being pressed - for instance D flat is often an offender.

Note - you originally said that you had problems with the F and G major scale notes. D-flat is not part of those scales. Note in my example I used A, which IS present in all 3 scales mentioned. (D-flat, or rather its enharmonic equivalent, is present in the D major scale.)

For questions like this specifics are better, "When I play D major, the B is fine, but when I play G major it's weak and out of tune."

I want to repeat my advice - make sure you are playing the "same way" no matter which scale you are playing. A good way to do this is extend the range of the scale, lower and higher. So for D major, play 2 full octaves, plus maybe low C# and high E. For F major, travel down to low C and up to high D (or E or F). G major, go down to low B and up to high E.

My scale exercise is to start on the lowest root possible, go up as high as possible, and then go as low as possible, and return to the starting note.

If you are not comfortable with the extreme low notes (C# and below) or high notes (C# and the palm key notes), omit them for now, but as you develop consistency, add more notes in until you can play each scale the full range of the instrument.

Also play a scale while playing the drones, so you can hear a reference to every note you are playing. This is ear training as well as embouchure and air training.

 

[Allophone]

I want to repeat my advice - make sure you are playing the "same way"

Yes - this is spot on good advice --
Consistency in mouth position, breath support, throat conformation, reed placement - everything I can think of - trying to do it "the same way".
I am trying to "isolate" the issue (as you said) and pay close attention.
I just wondered if other beginners had these issues.
Sometimes I practice with just the mouthpiece or just the mouthpiece and the neck and it seems that the pitch I get there can be quite variable.
Especially with mouthpiece plus neck alone.
So I was thinking that maybe the more "open hole" notes on the sax might be more sensitive to problems with intonation and timbre - just like when playing the neck alone.

Meanwhile - When doing scales I often throw in accidentals so I do wander outside of the strict major scale at times - sorry if I gave a wrong impression.
The idea of the drone tones giving a constant reference is very good as it could be the case that I slowly go a little sharp over the practice period until it becomes blatantly noticeable at some point and so I "hear" a bad note but really the notes have all been getting a wee bit bad all throughout the session.
Your suggestion on "Extending the scale" is also very good. I agree 100% -
Still working on those palm keys.
Also as regards specifics ---
Specifically - when I play chromatic scales starting on Low C on tenor and going not a full two octaves but up to around G - so octave and a fifth (i may need a fifth soon) - there is no problem ---But when I play a chromatic scale starting on the F up to the same G, then the D flat sounds weak and typically flat - like really flat. Which seems odd.
I thought that flat intonation was with a more relaxed embouchure.
But as a beginner plays (or so I have been instructed) and becomes fatigued, then the tendency for the tired beginner is to pinch and make intonation go sharp - ?
Now I don't know ---
Did the D flat really go flat or did the F through C all go sharp?
Driving me nuts - and by the way if I just keep playing that problem note, I can eventually fix it - but you can not do that in an ensemble or in a lyrical solo - sounds terrible.
So I am resolved to work with your drone tones, and expanded scales, and try to see what on earth I am doing to cause this - because if the notes sound fine on Monday but smelly on Tuesday stinky on Wednesday but great on Thursday - Then it is the player and not the machine.
Also I did a little internet search just asking: "What are the most difficult notes to play on a tenor sax?" >>>>> And the mid range B, C, and D flat did not make the list at all!!! And these are the buggers for me. So - focus - practice - isolate - drone tones - extended scales.
Thanks for the suggestions - truly - and hope my tone will become clearer than my questions - ;-)
PS you sound great on the drone tone example - nice!

 

[mizmar]

So I am resolved to work with your drone tones

and expanded scales

👎🏽

The drones are seriously useful - but probably best to stick with the "core" range (low C/D too high C#?) til it's sorted.
10 mins a day as a fixed part of your practice routine. Scares, arpeggios, long tones
C for a while, then G, then F etc...
... Eventually tunes or improv.

IMHO.

 

[Dr G]

Also I did a little internet search just asking: "What are the most difficult notes to play on a tenor sax?" >>>>> And the mid range B, C, and D flat did not make the list at all!!!

There exist two different questions here: "What notes are difficult to play?" vs "What notes are likely to be out of tune?"

There are some known intonation tendencies but that, too, is subject to whether the horn is properly vented (key height adjustments). Soft reeds, embouchure, poor air support are also contributing factors.

The good news is that you are aware that it deserves your attention.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

If the horn players got their lessons and instruments, from the Web, the walls of Jericho, would still be standing.
Good thing that Joshua, had a degree in performance and musical instrument technology.

In ancient times, only those that passed the pitch and rhythm discrimination tests,
were invited into the Band/Orchestra programs.
Makes me wonder, if many who are learning to play instruments, have hearing, capable of playing in tune.
Attitude often makes up for less
Aptitude. 👍

 

[Colin the Bear]

While playing a Gmajor scale, a Db will sound out of tune, or more accurately out of context. It's a flat five.

Try it in a diminished arpeggio and it sounds relevant.

 

[mizmar]

the walls of Jericho, would still be standing.

Which kinda makes the shofar a WMD rather than a musical instrument

 

[ghostler]

Which kinda makes the shofar a WMD rather than a muscle instrument

For a time, I taught children how to play a baroque recorder. Then I learned for a child under 8 years old, a recorder is "whistle". 😳

 

[mizmar]

For a time, I taught children how to play a baroque recorder. Then I learned for a child under 8 years old, a recorder is "whistle". 😳

I was given a recorder to play. Then discovered it worked better as a sword.

 

[Steve Marshall]

I would look at how you are setting up and holding the horn. You may be able to hold it in position for one set of notes, but can't balance things when you have a different amount of fingers to help. So the basic stance and sling adjustment are important.
It sounds like you may have embouchure issues and maybe have issues with the reeds you are using.

These sort of issue are best dealt with in person so a teacher could help a great deal.

 

[mizmar]

This just dropped into my YouTube-o-scope.
Quite dark/funny.
(Sax related)

View: https://youtu.be/6wFDeoIQ51Q

 

[MikeMorrell]

This just dropped into my YouTube-o-scope.
Quite dark/funny.
(Sax related)

...

Wow, what a great story, animation and expressive sax playing throughout, @mizmar! Many thanks for sharing this!

I thoroughly enjoyed the story, the wonderful animation and I was impressed by the expressive (and varying sax playing - based on the story and implied 'moods') throughout.

Maybe I'm reading much too much into this, but for me this was a wonderful example of how you can (dynamically) adjust your 'sax style' to suit 'the mood' of any part of the story that any song/piece tells.

Mike

 

[Tuppertn]

Wow, what a great story,

Not if you're the sax player that gets murdered by a carelessly discarded clock.