Playing the saxophone How to be "original"

According to Wynton Marsalis, there are no bad notes, just poor framing. (referring to the notes around the 'bad' one)

That sort of assumes that there is only one wrong note. Unfortunately in my case there may be several. 🙁

Then, just to stamp your authority, you play the original 'bum' note again, just to confirm you meant to play it in the first place.

My tactic is sometimes to try to slide off it chromatically, thus informing the listener that it is part of a harmonic structure too deep for their comprehension. 😉
 
That sort of assumes that there is only one wrong note. Unfortunately in my case there may be several. 🙁
The repeat the wrong note advice does often work. On the sax, I find as a new player, you can react fast enough to make the "bad" not a grace note, a variation of what you said.
 
The repeat the wrong note advice does often work. On the sax, I find as a new player, you can react fast enough to make the "bad" not a grace note, a variation of what you said.

My live performance forays into Sax playing are currently limited to brief solos and riffs. When I (often) stray into naughty bum note territory, our keyboardist likes to punctuate the occasion by screaming 'Jaaaazzzz'. By the time he's stopped distracting the audience I've hopefully found my way back into safer territory!
 
For second I though you were going to say the keyboard player placed a chord that supported your 'naughty' note. Wait, then it would be jazz!
 
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For second I though you were going to say the keyboard player placed a chord that supported your 'naughty' note. Wait, then it would be jazz!

He (we) aint good enough for that 😉 I think I remember reading a story about Herbie Hancock and Miles Davis along the same lines, though I think it was Davis making up for Hancock's bum chord!
 
He (we) aint good enough for that 😉 I think I remember reading a story about Herbie Hancock and Miles Davis along the same lines, though I think it was Davis making up for Hancock's bum chord!
It's good to have the ear to do this. I've been a sessions where someone would listen to a track and without making any notes, when an unexpected chord came up (or a note) they'd be able to go with it. This is of course called jazz/group improvisation when done live.
 
Hopefully the sax (which was designed as a Classical instrument) will become used more for that genre. For now EVERY major orchestra around the world has a clarinet section...that's a lot of clarinets. The sax is totally absent unless there is a part written for it (one out of a thousand classical pieces?) .

Good point about the sax taking the lead. If that lead captures people's imagination and communicates, then it gives a boost and has pushed the sax back forward as contemporary. This gets us back to the problem, which I don't see as a fault of the instrument...players are mostly stuck in the mid 20th century "vocabulary" and a style of playing technical variations that communicate little to an audience. Singers fall into the same "limited" category, but singers seem to have moved with the times and sing very differently to the way they did in the 1950s. If you're coming on to the music scene today singing like Perry Como, you're not likely to have much of a following. Simple truth is the 1950s jazz sax style isn't favored in contemporary music. Not the fault of the instrument, it's how it's played.

No problem copying old masters and playing standards and whatever you enjoy....just don't expect an audience or to make a living at it. And PLEASE DON'T TEACH IT AS THE ONLY WAY TO PLAY. This thread is about originality, which pretty much means NOT sounding the same as a lot of other stuff. How can one be playing "standards" in a style that's formulated and consider it "original"? If you want to be original throw open the windows and let the mid 20th century jazz sax style air out for a while. There's a whole world of music out there that doesn't all sound like it's from 60 years ago.

Ok. We agree that solely teaching the language of Bebop these days is poor. You'd also agree that it should not be a teachers job to create a clone of themself.

I do not think that the sax is in danger of falling off the face of the earth in music though. And I don't see how you can knock the style of sax playing as being narrow when you do not knock classical music/musicians. Let's take clarinet player Michael Frost as one example of a contemporary exponent of classical clarinet playing. Despite all the new stuff, like everyone else, he records the Mozart Concerto. Why? Because people like it. People buy it. What's different from all the others? Well, the Rondo might be faster and really staccato. Great. Brymer did that in 1970 or whenever it was. Perhaps Stadler did it in 1790. It's the same for all instruments, the big, famous, loved works get (re)recorded. All the time.

So. Why is jazz different? In fact, much of the time it is different. But even if somebody records Kind Of Blue, it will be nowhere near as exacting as all the recordings of classical works are.

Guitarists seem to escape your critique too, but the amount of dashing up and down the fretboard wearing out a blues pentatonic is as widespread, probably more-so than the proliferation of Bebop Parker licks from sax players. Lots of the public love this, and to earn money as a musician this is what many pros have to play.

Let's not forget that the clarinet was dethroned by musicians themselves and economics. Dance crazes like the Jitterbug were not appreciated by many jazzers and they wanted to get back to a purer form of jazz. Post war austerity and the wish to make music, rather than entertainment put paid to the clarinet-led big bands of the '40's.

The purists started Bebop, others were there at the birth of Rock 'n' Roll.

The 1970's and '80's had the guitar, synth and sax solo. Then it stopped. Not the fault of guys playing too many Bebop licks in the studio, but merely the music biz being increasingly run by business people and accountants with no knowledge or appreciation of music.

Meanwhile, the sax is quite popular on Classic FM over here.
 
It's all a matter of perceptions for the individual. If you're happy with things the way they are and don't see a problem, then (for you) there is no problem. If you've been encouraged and supported to get an advanced performance degree in Jazz sax playing and find that there is no hope of ever playing professionally, then you'd be aware of a problem. I'm aware of this and it seems a waste of talent that is due to a failed teaching system. If there's a way to quantify this it would be interesting. E.g. how many jobs are there for drummers, bass players, guitarists and keyboard players compared to sax players? What are the number/proportion of music graduates in each of those instrument groups who are able to play professionally? Does anyone think that the sax wouldn't be on the bottom by a big margin in categories?

We are what we play. Once again look around. What do we hear sax players playing? Mostly standards in the style of that time. Take those other instruments, what do you hear them playing? This should be a BIG clue to the problem, and the solution if you think about it.

In another thread a sax player asks how to get into playing with DJs. That's pertinent! That's where a sax can play and be relevant in the present tense and possibly even play professionally. How well will a jazzer mix with DJ style dance music? If you're trying to just play a lot of fast arpeggios and jazz riffs does this work? I don't think so. Most dance music has abundant rhythmic references. Adding a lot of notes just makes a mess, most of which won't be heard. What's almost always missing is a top line...a melodic reference. If you can spin melodic lines that works in the DJ context (I've been doing this for a few years). If you can't, well no need to apply. Playing as you would sing is the key and being one with your instrument so that it's your voice.

Teaching in a "one size fits all" method that encourages mechanical play (finger memory) and not necessarily being able to even hear the notes you're about to play is the antithesis of melodic playing.
 
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Once again look around. What do we hear sax players playing? Mostly standards in the style of that time.
Wade, that depends on where you look and how you navigate. I do a lot of searching for standards I am trying to learn. I have no intention of playing them in public, but it's good practice to learn tunes and play them at home. But when I seek to be pleased by music, it's the new music, most of which is not standards. What I see most of on YouTube is pop hits played by saxophonists, and new ideas like the beatBox Sax guy. There's a lot out there. I don't think standards are that important anymore. I'm trying to remember if any of Kenny Garrett's albums have anything but his own tunes on them, or at least modern tunes written by someone else. At certain shows and filmed jam sessions, people do play standards, for obvious reasons, but given carte blanche, most of them would play other things. Why did we listen to Wayne Shorter, Ron Carter and those guys back in the day? At that time, you light have been correct in that most saxes were playing bebop standards, while the new guys played funk, blues and their own modern conception of music like Miles Davis did.
 
We visited our local 6th Form College a few Months back for an open evening, in advance of my lad going there next Year. It's the same College I went to and it was like going into another World. The drab, broken down, uninspiring (OK, that might have been me!) place I went to nearly 30 Years ago is a bright, open and airy and fantastically equipped Campus! I was blown away. When we visited, the Jazz Band was playing live in the Glass Fronted Rehearsal room (a far cry from the 2 or 3 scabby old practice rooms we had to put up with).

The band were fantastic.10 Piece or so. Bass, Drums, Keys, Saxophones and other Horns, vocals etc. Modern, Funky and absolutely Professional sounding. Nothing fusty and outdated about their appearance or sound. It's just a shame my Son doesn't show much interest in Music as yet.

I don't claim to have a great deal of experience in the Educational Music Scene and the above is only a single example from my experience, but I'm hopeful that the (UK, at least) School system has a reasonably modern approach to the teaching of Jazz based music. It might come down to the approach and enthusiasm of individual Teachers that counts the most. I don't know, maybe the American system is more deeply entrenched in the past.

In addition to the above, from my view, the UK modern Jazz scene is pretty decent at the moment. Loads of young Jazz artists, Saxophonists, playing cool modern Jazz based music. (As an aside from the Sax front, Theon Cross is a cool, popular artist at the moment and he plays the Tuba, for God's sake)! Loads of ground breaking young American and World Jazz Saxophonists inspiring younger people and infiltrating the popular music scene.

EDIT: Maybe these current musicians are rebelling against an old fashioned music system rather than being a product of it. However if they inspire young musicians, I can't see an out dated teaching mode for Jazz lasting long as young people will just say. I don't want to play that, I wanna play THIS!
 
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@Wade Cornell and I have spoken extensively, and we understand each other. We just have different points of view on this topic of what people are taught and the result of same. I agree with the idea of the former, but differ on the the latter. I think there is a lot of originality on the saxophone, which as it happens, it having a revival in non-jazz with DJ's, some rap and hiphop, and all those beach videos.
 

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