Tech/maintenance High F# Key - Can It Be Removed?

[skeller047]

My horns are pretty evenly split. One of my 2 tenors, one of my 3 altos and 3 of my 4 sopranos have it. I never use it - partly to avoid confusing my feeble grasp on fingerings, and on soprano, I try to avoid notes higher than D3.

I know there’s an old thread or two about this, but a comment in another thread about the key causing problems led me to start this one. I particularly dislike it on my tenor, because the side Bb and C keys are a bit low, and the high F# key is right in line, and I sometimes graze it by accident. I have considered taking it off and plugging the hole. Has anyone here done this? And if so, how?

I put a bottle stopper in the tonehole once to try the idea, but did not feel that it was secure enough to trust outside the house. I do want it to be reversible. I know Rulon Brown makes a kit for young kids to plug the palm keys on an alto, but I’m not sure it would fit, so haven’t bought one. I have a 3D printer now so could probably make something that would work - I’ve made an end plug which I like a lot.

But I’d like to hear from people that have actually done this, if any, and what your experience was like.

 

[JayeNM]

well, it can be done and it is as 'removable' as unsoldering a soft soldered brass disc. Worst case scenario in the reversal would be possible loss of some lacquer up there.

Another option albeit probably not reversible would be to cut off the offending portion of the F# touch so there's more clearance from the side Bb....some F# touches are, IMHO, rather oversized....

The simplest solution is to wedge the key mechanism shut with a wooden wedge really wedged in there, so when you graze the touch, it is immovable....

 

[skeller047]

well, it can be done and it is as 'removable' as unsoldering a soft soldered brass disc. Worst case scenario in the reversal would be possible loss of some lacquer up there.

Another option albeit probably not reversible would be to cut off the offending portion of the F# touch so there's more clearance from the side Bb....some F# touches are, IMHO, rather oversized....

The simplest solution is to wedge the key mechanism shut with a wooden wedge really wedged in there, so when you graze the touch, it is immovable....

Thanks George. I would rather just use glue than soldering. Because “reversible” means putting the pad back in place, and removing the solder and dressing the tonehole sounds like more work. Removing contact cement on the other hand is pretty easy and wouldn’t harm the tone hole chimney too much; maybe a little lacquer loss. Epoxy would be a little more work…

Yes, the F# touch is large and in charge…. The wedge idea would be difficult on this particular mechanism; the key cup, on a long rod, doesn’t have a foot, and the linkage to it is buried next to the posts for the bis Bb and G keys. It’s the link itself that has the body stop. The link is a fork, similar to the side Bb and C keys.

Frankly, I am looking for stories and experiences of people that have actually done this. If no one has, then that’s something to consider 🙂

 

[Dr G]

You may be recalling an “experiment” led. at SotW by Heath. One easily removable option was to remove the associated key work and apply a piece of metallic foil tape inside the bore. Another was to soft solder a coin to the tone hole.

 

[PigSquealer]

Frankly, I am looking for stories and experiences of people that have actually done this.

I’ve done a few. The last was on an old “Tone King, JK” The player like you didn’t use HF#. The post by top kept getting banged and causing pad leak issues. He wished to have the system removed.
It’s not a problem to do this in a way that’s reversible mechanically. Cosmetically there will be signs of work done.

First off, what maker is your unit ? A or T ?
This matters and I’ll need a picture to review the RH side palm key area. Sometimes the opening stops, be it by key foot, post or stop regulation to a nearby key touch matters. Removing the side HF# assembly could cause issues for the remaining side keys.
Most RH side keys have opening stops close to the touch. This is for feel (solid opening) and to prevent bending or stresses beyond the touch.
Capping off the tone hole is no big deal. I would machine a thin disk. Then probably cold bond in place using a two part clear epoxy. Gentle heat would reverse / remove the bond.

 

[skeller047]

Thanks @PigSquealer - I've had the mechanism off before, stopping with a faux cork wine stopper. I have a thought to make a 3D printed disk that can be locked in place with a set screw, and that seals completely. I'm not sure about the glue, especially at first, as if I decide I don't like it I'll put the keys back on. I'll try to work on that this week, while I do the other gazillion things that are on my plate.

 

[Woodpad]

Thanks @PigSquealer - I've had the mechanism off before, stopping with a faux cork wine stopper. I have a thought to make a 3D printed disk that can be locked in place with a set screw, and that seals completely. I'm not sure about the glue, especially at first, as if I decide I don't like it I'll put the keys back on. I'll try to work on that this week, while I do the other gazillion things that are on my plate.

If you want a removable glue that seals you could use silicone paste with the printed disk. As long as the layer is not thicker than a mm it doesn't affect the saxophone. With thicker layers it produces so much vinegar during hardening that it can cause verdigris. When the silicone is hardening (24h in most cases) close the key with some plastic in between so the pad doesn't stick to the silicone.

 

[skeller047]

If you want a removable glue that seals you could use silicone paste with the printed disk. As long as the layer is not thicker than a mm it doesn't affect the saxophone. With thicker layers it produces so much vinegar during hardening that it can cause verdigris. When the silicone is hardening (24h in most cases) close the key with some plastic in between so the pad doesn't stick to the silicone.

That's a good idea, silicone sealer. I'll look into that. I'm not too worried about verdigris as the area is still completely lacquered, and I suspect it is the epoxy kind of lacquer. It seems very tough. There are a few places where it is wearing but they are all places I have either scratched or touch often (like the edge of the D palm key). I've had the horn for about 15 years now, and it looks brand new. Of course I haven't played it much till recently, but it's been my regular horn since about November of last year. It gets played most days, and has traveled up and down the west coast with me a couple times.

 

[thomsax]

High F# Key - Can It Be Removed?​

Yes. Here is a picture of the great R&B and Rock saxplayer Sax Gordon Beadle. the high F# key is removed and the toneholes is covered with a brass disc on his Couf Superba II tenor.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Just wedge the key closed with cork and render it imovable. If you graze it, nothing will happen.

 

[PigSquealer]

Here’s the one I did recently. Pillar removed. I made the plug from sheet brass and soldered it on.
I’ll see if the owner can send a picture of the key touch area.

 

[turf3]

Thanks George. I would rather just use glue than soldering. Because “reversible” means putting the pad back in place, and removing the solder and dressing the tonehole sounds like more work. Removing contact cement on the other hand is pretty easy and wouldn’t harm the tone hole chimney too much; maybe a little lacquer loss. Epoxy would be a little more work…

Yes, the F# touch is large and in charge…. The wedge idea would be difficult on this particular mechanism; the key cup, on a long rod, doesn’t have a foot, and the linkage to it is buried next to the posts for the bis Bb and G keys. It’s the link itself that has the body stop. The link is a fork, similar to the side Bb and C keys.

Frankly, I am looking for stories and experiences of people that have actually done this. If no one has, then that’s something to consider 🙂

Well, I'm sorry that I haven't done the mod you're talking about (have never owned a horn with high F#) but the principles of saxophone mechanism are pretty much constant.

First of all, don't rule out the cork wedge idea. Even though the actual "key foot" is buried down in the linkage, you probably can put a wedge between the underside of the key touch and the body tube. Once you get it all sized with your Exacto knife, put a dot of contact cement on each end, slide it in there, wedge it a bit, and Bob's your uncle.

If you find the key touch being there at all is annoying you, then first thing I'd do is to pull off only the keytouch part of the mech and leave all the rest. The spring should hold the pad closed. As a backup to this, you could simply glue the pad to the tone hole. This would be the second most easily reversible - put the keytouch piece back on, replace pad, clean glue off tonehole rim. I'd use contact cement.

And finally, if you decide to take off all the gubbinses and bits, jsut take a piece of cork of appropriate size, sand it down to appropriate diameter, and contact-cement it into the hole and be done. you can cut off the protruding bit if you want, even paint it with some gold model paint. I have tone hole crescents in a couple horns that've been there 30 years and more with just contact cement.