Saxophones Getting your own sound (as opposed to tone)

[Dr G]

But in your quote from Pete Effamy he dint actually say that, so why disagree???

OK, let’s see what he said.

In my experience on clarinet and soprano sax, holding closer to the body will effectively put more pressure on the reed due to a crowbar effect - head remains up, looking straight ahead.

Classical clarinet embouchures / holding the clarinet are closer to the body and employ a tighter sound and probably slightly higher pitched.

Bell further from body is more jazz-like, more open and plays a bit flatter.

The young woman playing sop is playing the horn with the bell held further away from her body. Does it sound “more jazz-like” to you?

This is your thread, so call it as you will. I think this is a great example of tone vs sound. Lily has a lovely full tone that would be suitable for playing either jazz or classical.

 

[ghostler]

Adding to what I mentioned previously, the following photo was taken two years ago by another then passed on to me later. I was playing some prelude jazz prior to the start of a wedding ceremony as guests were walking into the room. It was for two senior friends who decided to tie the knot.

So yes, I am holding the straight sop like a clarinet. However, it works for me well, haven't changed stance since I got the sop 13 years ago.

 

[lydian]

Is this guy holding it right for a smooth jazz sound?

 

[Pete Effamy]

OK, let’s see what he said.

The young woman playing sop is playing the horn with the bell held further away from her body. Does it sound “more jazz-like” to you?

This is your thread, so call it as you will. I think this is a great example of tone vs sound. Lily has a lovely full tone that would be suitable for playing either jazz or classical.

To clarify - and there always exceptions - holding the instrument inward / bell nearer body will produce a smaller, tighter sound and is usually - almost certainly with clarinet - associated with classical technique rather than jazz.

As George said, I have always found soprano to be very close to clarinet playing-wise - air very similar to, size etc, and I have always found it to be far less of a challenge than alto and tenor with my clarinet background.

 

[Pete Thomas]

The young woman playing sop is playing the horn with the bell held further away from her body. Does it sound “more jazz-like” to you?

It doesn’t sound anything like jazz to me. It does sound very nice IMO.

I don’t think holding the bell of a soprano away from the body is necessarily related to jazz.

Lily has a lovely full tone that would be suitable for playing either jazz or classical.

Indeed she does, that’s the kind of tone I prefer to hear and play on a soprano, whatever genre.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I don’t think holding the bell of a soprano away from the body is necessarily related to jazz.

No, but holding close will not facilitate an open sound, so seeing as Classical is more likely to be a tighter sound, I think the close to the body stance is more likely to be classical. And to my ear, L Skinner plays with a slight pressure more akin to a less-open classical sound.

More open - Branford has his head tilted forward, so the upward angle of the horn is rather high if he makes his head straight.

View: https://youtu.be/ld6zM7Owg8c?si=VBpwOEE7hMXnOFFu


Bob Reynolds - up! and notice that there is no cork showing (yes, maybe there isn't enough cork, but...) indicating how low in the pitch he's playing - in fact, sometimes he dips under.

View: https://youtu.be/Ca9Z1528T8Y?si=r4jEGYUHNS45Vqqg

 

[Pete Effamy]

If you play with the horn up, you can get any sound you like as you can apply more embouchure pressure. But (too) close to the body would require the jaw to contort back really far in order to get a really open sound; unless the head tilts forward.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Is this guy holding it right for a smooth jazz sound?
View attachment 32315

Yes, quite off to the right.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Is this guy holding it right for a smooth jazz sound?
View attachment 32315

Yes, quite off to the right.

I don’t believe holding to the right or left, once you have got used to that way, would have any significant effect on the sound (or tone of the instrument)

However I agree with Pete Effamy re clarinet style downward projection of the instrument from the lips is likely to have an effect, also on how versatile your embouchure can be.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I don’t believe holding to the right or left, once you have got used to that way, would have any significant effect on the sound (or tone of the instrument)

I wasn’t suggesting so. Probably off centre due to teeth, or the right hand being dominant. I play slightly right too. Don’t know why.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I wasn’t suggesting so. Probably off centre due to teeth, or the right hand being dominant. I play slightly right too. Don’t know why.

Yes I realised you weren’t suggesting it made any difference and now I think about it I’ve had to perform very soon after various dental works and/or lip damage and had to play on one side. It’s absolutely fine once you get used to any pain from using a bit of lip you aren’t used to using.

 

[Dr G]

Is this guy holding it right for a smooth jazz sound?
View attachment 32315

It looks like he has a very tight embouchure.

 

[Dr G]

No, but holding close will not facilitate an open sound, so seeing as Classical is more likely to be a tighter sound, I think the close to the body stance is more likely to be classical. And to my ear, L Skinner plays with a slight pressure more akin to a less-open classical sound.

More open - Branford has his head tilted forward, so the upward angle of the horn is rather high if he makes his head straight.

View: https://youtu.be/ld6zM7Owg8c?si=VBpwOEE7hMXnOFFu


Bob Reynolds - up! and notice that there is no cork showing (yes, maybe there isn't enough cork, but...) indicating how low in the pitch he's playing - in fact, sometimes he dips under.

View: https://youtu.be/Ca9Z1528T8Y?si=r4jEGYUHNS45Vqqg

Get beyond the focus on the horn and look at the “approach angle”. Yes, Branford plays with his head down in this image - see also that he uses a bent neck sop to compensate for the way he prefers to hold the horn. I, too, prefer a bent neck sop for that reason - I can get a better approach angle without holding the horn so high or looking at my shoes while restricting my airway.

 

[ghostler]

If you play with the horn up, you can get any sound you like as you can apply more embouchure pressure. But (too) close to the body would require the jaw to contort back really far in order to get a really open sound; unless the head tilts forward.

My lower jaw and teeth fall a little short versus someone whose jaw juts forward. So, it may explain why I play fine with the horn closer to my body.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Get beyond the focus on the horn and look at the “approach angle”. Yes, Branford plays with his head down in this image - see also that he uses a bent neck sop to compensate for the way he prefers to hold the horn. I, too, prefer a bent neck sop for that reason - I can get a better approach angle without holding the horn so high or looking at my shoes while restricting my airway.

I’ve been completely focused on the approach angle. The bent neck means that he doesn’t have to lift the horn further into the air. The fact remains that he, like B Reynolds is playing with an approach angle more akin to an alto or tenor than a classical clarinet bell down stance.

 

[turf3]

In pop music, including jazz, the individual's style is of prime importance. This becomes part of his or her "sound". Style includes, speaking saxophonically, articulation, volume, tonal concept, and when improvising, note and phrase choice. This is why great artists like Dexter Gordon or Trane or Bird or Cannonball or Phil Woods, are recognizable in a second or less - they paid attention to everything they did, and worked hard to create the sound they heard in their heads. In jazz particularly, having a unique and identifiable style is celebrated.

This is the primary imperative of African-American improvised music - to have one's own voice.

That comes from a combination of basic tone, inflections, note choices, and preferred vocabulary.

 

[turf3]

Does this look like an unusal approach angle?
View attachment 32310

Well, yes, Jimmy Giuffre is certainly an outlier. To the extent of having his tenor neck modified to approach closer to that clarinet embouchure.

 

[turf3]

Yes it does - on the face of it - but a still photo doesn't give you any context. He's got his eyes closed and he looks quite relaxed...so maybe that's his smoochy subtone playing position.
But then if you check out a video of him playing you'll see he often uses an even steeper approach angle. But then he's noted as a clarinet player, so that more acute approach angle is going to feel quite natural.
It clearly works for him though.

Also, if you take a look at the last minute or so of this video you might notice that his tenor crook looks somewhat odd. He's clearly had the angle tweaked to accommodate his playing position. I do much the same to my tenors on a much more modest scale...just to give the end of the crook a little lift.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRKkYO5qEis

Well, it is a distinctive sound, but it's not one I particularly dig.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Also, if you take a look at the last minute or so of this video you might notice that his tenor crook looks somewhat odd. He's clearly had the angle tweaked to accommodate his playing position.

It's suffering from pull up.

but it's not one I particularly dig.

Nor me, but I would not jump to the conclusion it's due to the neck angle.

 

[Dr G]

I’ve been completely focused on the approach angle. The bent neck means that he doesn’t have to lift the horn further into the air. The fact remains that he, like B Reynolds is playing with an approach angle more akin to an alto or tenor than a classical clarinet bell down stance.

Yes! I was thrown off track by your comment associating "close to body stance" with a tighter, classical sound.

No, but holding close will not facilitate an open sound, so seeing as Classical is more likely to be a tighter sound, I think the close to the body stance is more likely to be classical.

We may be on the same page after all. And then there is Pete T...

Argh, all this Stuff about clarinet embouchure is soooooo distracting. Free the reed.

And now we attempt once again to return to tone vs sound. Anyone got anything or are we Done?