Saxophones Getting your own sound (as opposed to tone)

[Ghr9204]

But then if you check out a video of him playing you'll see he often uses an even steeper approach angle. But then he's noted as a clarinet player, so that more acute approach angle is going to feel quite natural. It clearly works for him though.

Maybe that's why I have better luck than some others playing a straight sop, since I started and still play my clarinet.

My Venus is one piece, not like others that come with both a straight and curved neck, which moves the mouthpiece to a more standard position for a saxist. I hold the sop like I hold the clarinet.

To me, it is similar to a big bore clarinet, love the sop's haunting sound, an excellent solo instrument. Because of that sweet haunting sound it could fill in for a band missing an oboe.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Maybe that's why I have better luck than some others playing a straight sop, since I started and still play my clarinet.

Theoretically using a clarinet embouchure with the horn angled down is not correct, but as with Jimmy Giuffre, if it gets you a good sound that's all that really matters, rather than "correctness." IMO

 

[Dr G]

Theoretically using a clarinet embouchure with the horn angled down is not correct, but as with Jimmy Giuffre, if it gets you a good sound that's all that really matters, rather than "correctness." IMO

I have heard others mimicing that approach angle because they were Giuffre fans - on them it sounded totally muffled. I don’t know Giuffre’s details, but it reminds me of the Sanborn story - that his extreme approach is an accommodation for a physical condition.

 

[Grumps]

@Grumps Apologies.
I did ask about necks on the thread Saxophones - KB sax necks

No worries Cappers, we're all good. You have to be careful with even casual observations when swapping equipment, as you'll likely fall prey to expectancy theory in some form or another. But random neck swapping is never going to make you a better player, and whether you're just starting out or have been playing for years, if you get into this you're just making yourself a mark for those willing to sell you anything they can. That's why necks are so in vogue these days. Just trying to squeeze every penny they can out of you.

If your horn isn't making you happy, find another horn. With its proper neck.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I may have mentioned already somewhere, whenever someone gets a different neck inevitably they trot out the old phrase “it opened up the sound.”

Nobody has yet made a convincing definition of that phrase. Mr. Cynical told me it means “ I paid £700 for the neck hence I believe it sounds better.”

A neck may well sound different in that it could possibly change the tone. But so does a reed, mouthpiece, microphone, room and guess what else? The player.

We go back to my OP where I differentiate between tone and sound.

 

[cappers]

If your horn isn't making you happy, find another horn. With its proper neck.

No problem with the horn(s) love both of them. Just trying to decide which I prefer to play!

I recorded on the Yam and the Vito with their own necks and then the the Yam+Vito neck.
To be honest the difference in tone I originally perceived is now minimal!
There is a slight edge and sparkle to the Yam with its own neck. Yam+Vito neck and Vito+Vito neck a touch warmer, mellower, more rounded? Anyway, I'm going to stick with the proper neck for each.

Thanks to all, my query is sorted now. Didn't mean to take over the OP about 'tone' v 'sound'.

 

[Colin the Bear]

New or different gear often sounds and feels different at first. After a while it always sounds more or less like you. Sometimes a slightly better you, but not always.

 

[Ghr9204]

Theoretically using a clarinet embouchure with the horn angled down is not correct, but as with Jimmy Giuffre, if it gets you a good sound that's all that really matters, rather than "correctness." IMO

Well, you might say it is a modified clarinet embouchure. I'm using a medium chamber wider gapped Brilhart Graftonite B5 mouthpiece with #2 Select reeds, which has reasonable projection but isn't a paint peeler. I'd probably give classic clarinet players a fit. Was told years ago that if I played clarinet jazz style with vibrato I'd ruin my chops for good. Well, I'm ruined.

Dues paid in full and no one has complained. Plus I don't wear a hat with dark glasses and dance as I play.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Well, you might say it is a modified clarinet embouchure.

But you also have to wonder should a Bb soprano clarinet be different (in regard to mouthpiece in mouth angle) to a bass or alto clarinet where there is an angle neck, hence implying the mouthpiece should be more perpendicular to the face on those larger clarinets. Granted the neck does angle more upwards towards the mouth than does an alto or tenor saxophone.

Don’t know, who here doubles on Bb, alto and bass?

 

[Ghr9204]

But you also have to wonder should a Bb soprano clarinet be different (in regard to mouthpiece in mouth angle) to a bass or alto clarinet where there is an angle neck

Actually I have never really gave it much thought. Not being a music educator, years ago I just do. I'm happy with my sound and tone. Perhaps then ignorance is bliss?

Edit: Been 53 years since I last handled an alto clarinet. Can't say specifically because since haven't touched them, but my guess would be no different than an alto or tenor sax. Only difference would be the mouthpiece is a bit larger AFAIK, more chisel shaped. Spreads the jaw apart a touch more. But, that is more a conjecture than fact.

Here's a jazz musician on bass clarinet. Just a casual glance, seems not much different than playing tenor sax.

Here's a longer 12 minute clip, trumpet and bass clarinet in duet:

 

[jazzdoh]

Yes it does - on the face of it - but a still photo doesn't give you any context. He's got his eyes closed and he looks quite relaxed...so maybe that's his smoochy subtone playing position.
But then if you check out a video of him playing you'll see he often uses an even steeper approach angle. But then he's noted as a clarinet player, so that more acute approach angle is going to feel quite natural.
It clearly works for him though.

Also, if you take a look at the last minute or so of this video you might notice that his tenor crook looks somewhat odd. He's clearly had the angle tweaked to accommodate his playing position. I do much the same to my tenors on a much more modest scale...just to give the end of the crook a little lift.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRKkYO5qEis

Great playing but his neck almost looks like a alto neck and it's without doubt a clarinet embouchure, but if it works it works.

 

[Stephen Howard]

I may have mentioned already somewhere, whenever someone gets a different neck inevitably they trot out the old phrase “it opened up the sound.”

Case in point. TJ very kindly sent me a sample of their new 'Vintage' (I think) crook for my TJ RAW tenor some years ago.
I was impressed! It was more open, more vibrant, more punchy. Took it out on a gig, where it performed just fine - but afterwards realised that the reason I got the RAW was that it had more lower end harmonics that the YTS-23...and the new crook took the RAW closer to the Yamaha.
In this case there were no costs - but even if I'd bought it I still woulld have gone back to the stock crook.

Like I tell so many clients - it's as much as what a new bit of kit takes away as it brings.

 

[Stephen Howard]

My Venus is one piece, not like others that come with both a straight and curved neck, which moves the mouthpiece to a more standard position for a saxist. I hold the sop like I hold the clarinet.

So do I - and if I have to play a sop my preference is always for a straight single-piece body. If I needed one I'd get a YSS-62.

 

[Pete Effamy]

In my experience on clarinet and soprano sax, holding closer to the body will effectively put more pressure on the reed due to a crowbar effect - head remains up, looking straight ahead.

Classical clarinet embouchures / holding the clarinet are closer to the body and employ a tighter sound and probably slightly higher pitched.

Bell further from body is more jazz-like, more open and plays a bit flatter.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Classical clarinet embouchures / holding the clarinet are closer to the body and employ a tighter sound and probably slightly higher pitched.

Do you think I’m right though, in saying that alto and bass clarinet necks may suggest a less “closer to the body.”

 

[Dr G]

In my experience on clarinet and soprano sax, holding closer to the body will effectively put more pressure on the reed due to a crowbar effect - head remains up, looking straight ahead.

Classical clarinet embouchures / holding the clarinet are closer to the body and employ a tighter sound and probably slightly higher pitched.

Bell further from body is more jazz-like, more open and plays a bit flatter.

Respectfully disagree that a full tone on sop is “jazz-like” - unless you consider this jazz.

View: https://youtu.be/9pqJpf6gkOw?si=mF5Adn7osCOFNCZL

Props, btw, to Lily Skinner for a great sound and joyful performance.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Respectfully disagree that a full tone on sop is “jazz-like” - unless you consider this jazz.

But in your quote from Pete Effamy he dint actually say that, so why disagree???

 

[Pete Effamy]

Do you think I’m right though, in saying that alto and bass clarinet necks may suggest a less “closer to the body.”

Yes for bass clarinet. Leeds college of music had an Alto clarinet - bought for use in the wind band. Can’t remember playing it though.

 

[Ghr9204]

Being that the crook on an alto clarinet is at a less of a bend angle than an alto sax, with the weight resting on the neck strap and standing, its mouthpiece angle IMO would be more like the Bb soprano clarinet.

Bass clarinet mouthpiece angle IMO is more like a tenor sax.

Have noticed one does not see alto clarinets as much these days. I gather that they just have the bass clarinet play a bit higher or if beyond practical range transfer the part to other instruments.

Used to be nearly every major clarinet maker made an Eb alto. Looking, only one I found thus far was a French Selmer:

Clarinette alto - Henri SELMER Paris

La conception soigneusement élaborée de la clarinette alto en mib Henri SELMER Paris combine habilement un corps en bois de grenadille de première qualité avec un bocal, un pavillon et des clés en argentées, offrant ainsi une harmonie parfaite entre acoustique, fonctionnalité et esthétique. Les...

www.selmer.fr

A bit pricey, at $13,663.04 about the same as the Bb bass clarinet. And,

YCL-631II Alto Clarinet - Yamaha USA

Shop the Yamaha YCL-631II Alto clarinet for precise pitch and a consistently relaxed tone in all registers.

usa.yamaha.com

MSRP: $14,687.00, SaxQuest: $9,451.99.

 

[skeller047]

I may have mentioned already somewhere, whenever someone gets a different neck inevitably they trot out the old phrase “it opened up the sound.”

Nobody has yet made a convincing definition of that phrase. Mr. Cynical told me it means “ I paid £700 for the neck hence I believe it sounds better.”

A neck may well sound different in that it could possibly change the tone. But so does a reed, mouthpiece, microphone, room and guess what else? The player.

We go back to my OP where I differentiate between tone and sound.

Case in point. TJ very kindly sent me a sample of their new 'Vintage' (I think) crook for my TJ RAW tenor some years ago.
I was impressed! It was more open, more vibrant, more punchy. Took it out on a gig, where it performed just fine - but afterwards realised that the reason I got the RAW was that it had more lower end harmonics that the YTS-23...and the new crook took the RAW closer to the Yamaha.
In this case there were no costs - but even if I'd bought it I still woulld have gone back to the stock crook.

Like I tell so many clients - it's as much as what a new bit of kit takes away as it brings.

I bought a Boston Sax Shop neck for my Mark VI tenor. I did so because I had a few months prior purchased a “backup tenor”, a Phil Barone Classic, and it did not have the stuffiness in the palm keys and resistance in the altissimo that my VI did. I had discussed the issue with Jack, the BSS owner, and he felt the new neck might help.

It did. It changed the response and resistance of the palm keys and made altissimo easier. The basic tonal spectrum remains the same. 12+ years later, this is still the neck I use on this horn.

Two things make my story a bit different than the usual “trying necks to help my sound” that we hear about. 1) I had a specific issue which I wanted to address. 2) I did my research, which led me to the BSS Heritage neck. If the neck hadn’t fixed my issue I would have returned it or sold it on, but in my case it took my Mark VI from “Not the greatest, but a good horn” to “One of the top 5% of all Mark VIs I have played”.

Back to the tone vs. sound dichotomy, I don’t think they are separate really, as tone is a component of one’s “personal sound”. I think it is worthwhile to work on developing a “good tone”, whatever that means to the player. To me it means “A rich full sound, with a good balance of higher harmonics, not overly edgy nor overly dark, and possessing a strong core and clarity”.

But a good tone is not all that’s required for a “good sound”. That also requires clarity, but here it’s a clarity of style, and a consistency in the application of articulation, dynamics and all the other subtle details that go into a musical performance. A musician with a good sound has the same characteristics as a good public speaker - clarity of thought, thorough understanding of the material being presented, awareness of the context of the presentation, and awareness of the audience’s attention level. In other words, “good sound” is just another way of saying “good communication”.