Playing the saxophone Flutter Tongue.

[Alice]

I'll take your word for it, not a genre I have read.

I was thinking that too! 😛 though I did pick up a copy in Oxfam once and was quite surprised at the contents. The things that some people use for a bookmark....

 

[jeremyjuicewah]

Think I posted somewhere on here that my ghastly aunt (deceased) was published by Mills and Boon so if I am a little bit Mills and Boony then its in the genes. And that is where it is staying, as with all Mills and Boon. They were always very strict about what you can expect to be published and that which you cannot.

 

[thomsax]

Flutter tongueing once again. I have an excercise that I have hit on. It goes to the problem I experience of sounding a good note on pitch while errr.....fluttering the err......tongue.

I put the back of my hand an inch or so from my lips and start fluttering while making sure that I always feel a good stream of hot breath on the back of my hand. These two things do not always go together and my hope is that when I shove the neck in my mouth I will be a bit further forward.

You must have a very complicated and obliging set of oral features. The thought of flutter tongue plus growl plus trying to sound a true note makes my tonsils knot up. Congratulations. Growling has its own set of difficulties, like remembering to do it as I tend to forget as I concentrate on other things. I will not be the first person to say this but there is so much to learn with this instrument. I remember my first few days, years ago now, with my Chinese alto thinking "this is not so hard, lot less trouble than a guitar."
Oh ha ha ha ha ha.

Growling is easy for me. Some players says I'm growling all the time. I'm not, I guess I just have a "natural growling tone". But the flutter tone it's hard for me. I use to take much mouthpiece and I can just do the flutter tone when I take less mouthpiece. My tongue is touching the tip of the mouthpiece/reed. Just a little. Play a E2 straight add flutter and then add growl and back to the straight E2. On our last Rocksax workshop we tried flutter tone and growl together. Some guys got it right from the beginning. We also tried to add a heavy vibrato while playing tremolo A to F#. It was just Andrew Clark who could do that. Rock & Roll Saxophone is great! An organic synthesizer!

 

[jeremyjuicewah]

Roll Saxophone is great! An organic synthesizer!

absolutely completely agree. It is such fun and awfully coooooool........

 

[John Laughter]

"Unfortunately it isn't something that I can do and too be honest, I can't really hear it when played"

Take a listen starting at 1:19. Then at 1:31 he starts the "flutter". See if you can hear the difference. Then at 2:19 which leads into 2:27 where his does it for about 6 beats.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFEtXB8xf2k

 

[jeremyjuicewah]

Take a listen starting at 1:19. Then at 1:31 he starts the "flutter". See if you can hear the difference. Then at 2:19 which leads into 2:27 where his does it for about 6 beats

I hear it, wish I could do it. I am sure I will in the end. More blind faith.

 

[Mike T]

First requisite is the Spanish rolled R. Once you can manage that, you have to learn to do it with a mouthpiece stuffed in your gob, while blowing a note and maintaining a seal with your lips, while trying your utmost not to blow flat…

The size of the mouthpiece has a lot to do with the difficulty, too. The bigger the mouthpiece, the less room you have to flutter your tongue against your palate and still keep it away from the mouthpiece. It can really hurt if the underside of your tongue hits the tip of the reed while you're flutter-tonguing. It's best to start off practising flutter-tonguing on a smaller instrument, like clarinet or, if you don't play clarinet, soprano sax. Once you get it right on them, move up progressively through alto, tenor and bari. Good luck.

 

[jeremyjuicewah]

The size of the mouthpiece has a lot to do with the difficulty, too. The bigger the mouthpiece, the less room you have to flutter your tongue against your palate and still keep it away from the mouthpiece. It can really hurt if the underside of your tongue hits the tip of the reed while you're flutter-tonguing. It's best to start off practising flutter-tonguing on a smaller instrument, like clarinet or, if you don't play clarinet, soprano sax. Once you get it right on them, move up progressively through alto, tenor and bari. Good luck

Thanks for that. I do keep a crook and mpc in the car and when I pull up for a reps nap I often have a blow. I can do it a bit on this set up but find it hard on full set up to maintain any kind of musical quality and also actually get enough air throught the mpc to make my notes. From your post above this is obviously a common prob. With a burst at altissimo and sweet low notes I have let this learning slide a bit. I will have a go today. It will come if I keep at it. The Spanish rrrrrrolled rrrrr is not a prob, señor.

 

[jeremyjuicewah]

Was scaring the goats a good deal yesterday by fluttering the tongue accross my neck/mpc set up in the car. It is getting a lot better, no two ways. Tonight I will give it a go again on the real thing. I have been reading back through this thread and though I do use growl quite well now, especially with my Hooligan which growls very well, it is not the same as flutter tongue. I dont hear the grossness in flutter tongue. Usually it switches on and off and is very effective, to my ears. I play One Step Beyond, as its quite easy and impresses most audiences and other band members, and the flutter tongue switches on and off in that very effectively. I have to growl. I think I will get this right one day, a while ago I thought I never would. Its all practice.

 

[John Laughter]

Yes, it will come with more practice. I can remember the time when I started to learn the growl and flutter back in the 50's. Many of the sax players were using the effects on Top 40 songs so it was something that some of us wanted to learn if we were in combos and liked the new music.

Both took time. Especially the flutter because the jaw would drop and I lost too much air. At that time I did not realize that using just the neck and m/p to begin with would help.

The growl also took time. It was hard to hum (technique I learned) a note other than the pitch I was playing which would cancel the effect.

Actually the most difficult one for me in those years was the subtone which was needed for the slow songs.

My first band director (7th grade) did not appreciate the growl and flutter so no help there. His background was classical and he played trumpet. My second band director played sax and had played a lot of big band music and knew all the effects and was very helpful.

At any rate, keep at it and you will be playing them in time without thinking about it. We all have to find what works best for us to get these sounds.

 

[Jazzaferri]

The difference is pretty obvious methinks. There is no magic to it (other than using flutter artistically) as @John Laughter says it just takes practice.

 

[John Laughter]

🙂

 

[jeremyjuicewah]

Actually the most difficult one for me in those years was the subtone which was needed for the slow songs.

My first band director (7th grade) did not appreciate the growl and flutter so no help there. His background was classical and he played trumpet. My second band director played sax and had played a lot of big band music and knew all the effects and was very helpful.

I recognise this. A few weeks after I got my first Chinese alto my teacher told me "you sound like a duck". We worked on subtone and I got it quite quickly. At school, my music teacher was very old school and his opinion of the guitar was that it was not a musical instrument at all. Just a nuisance which would soon go away as long as no one paid it any attention. I played guitar back then. I met him years later and he was an amusing and intelligent guy and not at all the *****ole I had thought him. He died not long after we met up and I expect he still held his views on guitar. I didnt ask him, there was too much other ground to cover in finding out what it was like to teach in an all boys sec mod in the bursting days of the 1960s. I imagine that it was pretty good training for where he has probably ended up.

 

[Targa]

I recognise this. A few weeks after I got my first Chinese alto my teacher told me "you sound like a duck".

He couldn't tell squawk from flutter.

 

[Alice]

Luckily it wasn't duck hunting season.

 

[John Laughter]

🙂

 

[jeremyjuicewah]

On Saturday and Sunday evenings I devoted the last fifteen minutes to flutter tongue. On Saturday herself opened the door of the room and stuck her head in and said she had thought that she had better come and see because it sounded as though I was being ill. That is true.

On Sunday I tried a couple of mpcs and had some success but then went to the PPT as that is the mpc I mostly play (cant even begin to do it with the Hooligan) and I had some more success. At the mo I can only do it badly around mid range. I am hoping that things will take off now. Once you get the feel, as with the low notes, the rest usually follows.

And yes it does hurt a bit when you flutter on the reed. Specially a razor shapr synthetic one.
Cheers all
Mike

 

[John Laughter]

Sounds good. Some progress in the making and it will all come in time. The flutter works well in the mid and high range. Not so well (for me) below low G.

Check out the range on a few of these songs that I may have mentioned before: “Honky Tonk Part 2” by Bill Doggett. Clifford Scott used it in his 4th solo, “Tequila” when Chuck Rio used it while repeating the main melody, Jr. Walker performed the effect in “Shotgun”, Joel Peskin added it to his solo on “With Every Beat of My Heart” by Taylor Dayne, Bobby Keys on “Brown Sugar” by The Rolling Stones, “Rebel Rouser” by DUANE EDDY with GIL BERNAL, “The Stroll” by the DIAMONDS with KING CURTIS, “Twistin’ The Night Away” by SAM COOKE with JACKIE KELSO and “Urgent” by FOREIGNER with JR. WALKER.

 

[jeremyjuicewah]

Sounds good. Some progress in the making and it will all come in time. The flutter works well in the mid and high range. Not so well (for me) below low G.

Check out the range on a few of these songs that I may have mentioned before: “Honky Tonk Part 2” by Bill Doggett. Clifford Scott used it in his 4th solo, “Tequila” when Chuck Rio used it while repeating the main melody, Jr. Walker performed the effect in “Shotgun”, Joel Peskin added it to his solo on “With Every Beat of My Heart” by Taylor Dayne, Bobby Keys on “Brown Sugar” by The Rolling Stones, “Rebel Rouser” by DUANE EDDY with GIL BERNAL, “The Stroll” by the DIAMONDS with KING CURTIS, “Twistin’ The Night Away” by SAM COOKE with JACKIE KELSO and “Urgent” by FOREIGNER with JR. WALKER.

As always thank you John. Your book and CD were the start of this long journey.
Cheers
Mike

 

[brianr]

. The Spanish rrrrrrolled rrrrr is not a prob, señor.

Yes, that may work, but what you really need to practice is a Scottish rolling of R's.

say this : Round and round the rugged rock the ragged rascal ran, the wee buggerrr.

Ok, I admit, I added the last wee bit for that genuine Scottish feel, but try it anyway.