Playing the saxophone F# fingering problems

[Targa]

I rarely use the long Bb but my tutor suggested it this week for a piece that has a# f a# and a# to b

Jx

I find long Bb doesn't sound quite as good as bis or side so for that I would hold bis down and roll off it for B.
I never have any trouble going from bis to B or B to bis.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Long closes the same pad as long. If there's a noticeable difference in sounds I would think it's due to regulation. Something needs a tweek.

Ha ha spell check suggested twerk. Twerking a saxophone needs a whole new thread

 

[Mike T]

Personally, I have no problem playing up and down the F# arpeggio using side A# - that key just sits naturally under the RH index finger for me.

On the other hand (!) I have to force myself to use the bis key. There are two reasons for this: 1. I started on clarinet which has no bis key; and 2. there is a gap between the B key and the Bb bis key on my Conn tranny tenor which is just wide enough to pinch my index finger. My Conn 10M has less of a gap, but I try and avoid changing fingerings when I change horns.

I genuinely can't understand why so many players consider the bis key a necessity. You have the RH side key, you have two versions of the long Bb: LH1 + RH1 which is good in flat keys and LH1 + RH2 which is good in sharp keys. How many fingerings do you need for Bb? All the same, the bis key is there, so every now and then I deliberately use it, just to remind myself.

Of course there can be a problem with the long Bb which some saxophonists create for themselves by deliberately setting the bis key so that it remains open just a crack when they depress RH1 or RH2. My techy mate does this on his own tenors: he told me it was to make the bis key operate like a third register key, and facilitate some notes in the upper altissimo. He asked me if I wanted him to set up my Conn 10M that way; I refused, because, being a clarinettist, I'm used to the long Bb and want to keep it in good working order, without leaks.

 

[Nick Wyver]

I genuinely can't understand why so many players consider the bis key a necessity.

It's a key on the sax that's there for a purpose. So I use it. I can play using the side key too but, for many situations, bis is easier.

 

[BigMartin]

I genuinely can't understand why so many players consider the bis key a necessity. You have the RH side key, you have two versions of the long Bb: LH1 + RH1 which is good in flat keys and LH1 + RH2 which is good in sharp keys. How many fingerings do you need for Bb?

It's not a necessity, it's a convenience, like the front Eb/Bb lever (forget what it's called) on a clarinet.

If you want to complain about the mechanism on a sax, I'd go for the little finger (aka pinky) keys. I played clarinet before sax too and I still (nearly 7 years in) hate all that sliding around on the table keys. I'm currently working on building up the muscles in my left little fionger so I can do it smoothly on the baritone (my bari is quite heavily sprung in that area but I'm not sure how much lighter it could be and still work correctly). I don't feel like I should have to do that. I much prefer the system of left/right alternatives you have on the clarinet.

 

[Mike T]

It's not a necessity, it's a convenience.

In other words you agree with me — but many saxplayers I know do consider it a necessity.

If you want to complain about the mechanism on a sax, I'd go for the little finger (aka pinky) keys. I played clarinet before sax too and I still (nearly 7 years in) hate all that sliding around on the table keys. I'm currently working on building up the muscles in my left little finger so I can do it smoothly on the baritone (my bari is quite heavily sprung in that area but I'm not sure how much lighter it could be and still work correctly).

What sort of bari do you play ? I'm mainly a bari player these days (although with tenor a close second), and yes, the LH little finger table can be a bit awkward. I find it a bit more cumbersome on my low-A bari (Conn 11M) than on the low-Bb (Conn 12M), probably because of the extra key-weight. However for me personally the old Conn set-up beats the "modern" Selmer-style table hands down. It was good enough for Gerry Mulligan and Joe Temperley, so it'll do me. 🙂

I much prefer the system of left/right alternatives you have on the clarinet.

Not me. I play Oehler system clarinet, you see, which is an improved Albert system. I don't like Boehm at all, though I was trained on it initially. I prefer little finger keys with rollers. Less complicated.

 

[BigMartin]

What sort of bari do you play?

Bauhaus Walstein. Don't know if you get many of those in your part of the world. Modern Selmer-style table.

Not me. I play Oehler system clarinet, you see, which is an improved Albert system. I don't like Boehm at all, though I was trained on it initially. I prefer little finger keys with rollers. Less complicated.

Never played anything but Boehm clarinets. Rollers may be less complicated, but I feel much less comfrotable moving my fingers sideways than up and down. Also the key heights aren't always perfectly matched for sliding. Ah well, that's what all the practice is for, I suppose.

 

[Dibbs]

If you want to complain about the mechanism on a sax, I'd go for the little finger (aka pinky) keys. I played clarinet before sax too and I still (nearly 7 years in) hate all that sliding around on the table keys. I'm currently working on building up the muscles in my left little fionger so I can do it smoothly on the baritone (my bari is quite heavily sprung in that area but I'm not sure how much lighter it could be and still work correctly). I don't feel like I should have to do that. I much prefer the system of left/right alternatives you have on the clarinet.

The advantage is you can't get on the wrong side like you can on a (Boehm) clarinet and cause a complete train wreck. Jack Brymer said something like "German system clarinet players need nimble fingers and Boehm players need a nimble brain". There are situations on the Boehm system where you end up having to slide (or swap sides mid note) anyway.

I like the "patent C#" system on the later Albert and Oehler system clarinets. The B key alone, with out the C key plays a C#. So you can trill B-C# with the C key and Db-Eb with the Eb key. Bb would be better as a right thumb key like the tárogató. It takes a bit of getting used to but it's clearly a better solution than that on saxes.

If really you want a to tax your little fingers try playing an old 5 key clarinet. Getting from (middle line) B to C# and back is a nightmare. You can't slide really. You have to play the by B pushing down with the end of your finger (as normal) and the C# by straightening the finger and pushing sideways with the middle of the finger on the lever. Doing that without the ring finger moving and leaking is a bloody nightmare, for me at least. I once did 10 mins a day of just ||: A B C# D C# B :|| for a couple of months and just about got the hang of it. I haven't played it for a while now so I've probably lost it again.

 

[BigMartin]

Jack Brymer said something like "German system clarinet players need nimble fingers and Boehm players need a nimble brain".

Sums it up nicely. In my case the brain is the less clumsy of the two.

 

[jbtsax]

I have read these often heated "how to finger Bb" discussions on several forums for years and have to smile. This was all figured out years ago and can be found in The Art of Saxophone Playing by Larry Teal in the chapter "Developing the Technique" under the heading "Alternate Fingerings".

 

[Mike T]

Thanks for the reference, jbtsax. If I'm looking for new alternative fingerings, I usually look up Merlin Williams, the Canadian multi-wind player. He's got an amazing series of sax discussions on YouTube.

Yes, BigMartin, a mate of mine in Melbourne has a Bauhaus Walstein. I think he imported it himself. It's a sturdy bloody machine.

 

[brianr]

This was all figured out years ago and can be found in The Art of Saxophone Playing by Larry Teal in the chapter "Developing the Technique" under the heading "Alternate Fingerings"

.

I agree with this suggestion.

I had several teachers suggest that i buy this, and I eventually did.

its great. Mine is away in a box somewhere and i havent seen it for years. But I remember getting a lot from it.

Funnily, i was at a workshop/masterclass recently given by Iain Ballamy, and he was raving about this very same book too.

I must look mine out again .

 

[Colin the Bear]

When did personal preference become controversial?

 

[Nick Wyver]

When did personal preference become controversial?

About 3 million years ago when folk discovered there was more than one way to knap a flint.

 

[spike]

To add a cat among the pigeons - nice Bb that I use quite a bit is OK+ LH 12 + RH 123+Eb.
Depends on what kind of music you play of course. 😉

 

[Nick Wyver]

To add a cat among the pigeons - nice Bb that I use quite a bit is OK+ LH 12 + RH 123+Eb.
Depends on what kind of music you play of course. 😉

Flat music?

 

[Jeanette]

Flat music?

A. Variation on house music?

Jx

 

[Jeanette]

Or should that be elevation!!!

Jx

 

[Mike T]

To add a cat among the pigeons - nice Bb that I use quite a bit is OK+ LH 12 + RH 123+Eb.
Depends on what kind of music you play of course. 😉

That fingering's a bit extreme, isn't it ?

T – – 3 | 1 2 –

 

[spike]

That fingering's a bit extreme, isn't it ?

Yes it is - but it's worth it for the sound.

I'll have to give your - - 3 | 1 2 - a whirl and add it to my arsenal. Haven't come across that one.