Tech/maintenance Dutch wooden saxophone pads

[PigSquealer]

An alternative solution could be to lower the right hand posts 15 mm, but that is too much work for me.

15mm !

 

[PigSquealer]

Working on a stencil saxophone from around 1970 I measured that the whole right hand main stack required pads 5,6 mm thick. I don't like how that looks so measured how the thickness required by the left hand main stack could be used. By making the axis side of the pad 1 mm thicker tha the opposite site the saxophone would be alright.

In such a case 4.6 mm leather pads will leak in a few years unless ugly thick shims are used. I don't name the stencil brand as you don't find this problem in their main products.

4.6mm pads are within normal top thickness range. But 5.6mm thick is a tad much IMHO.
Has the rib been remounted or posts been knocked over towards the chimneys??

 

[Woodpad]

4.6mm pads are within normal top thickness range. But 5.6mm thick is a tad much IMHO.
Has the rib been remounted or posts been knocked over towards the chimneys??

They are unhamed single posts. No damage to the body. The pads are app. 2mm of center. When the posts are mounted back those 2 mm I think that 4.6 mm pads might do a reasonable job. Still the 5.6 mm is unprecedented. It looks like the position would be alright for an offline design, while this is an in-line design. I found it on Ebay where it was treated as a hot potato. I think that I am still lucky that the last tech who handled it didn't do anything stupid as leveling the tone holes with a height difference.

It feels a bit strange to place a pad where the axis side is 1 mm higher than the other side.
The only times when I have seen a required height of more than 5mm is in high F keys where the differeces in height are smaller.
Still this solution will be altight as polyester silicone can handle a 1 mm height difference..

The stencil itself is pretty rare, but not as rare as a Holton made Vito.

 

[Woodpad]

Working on a stencil saxophone from around 1970 I measured that the whole right hand main stack required pads 5,6 mm thick. I don't like how that looks so measured how the thickness required by the left hand main stack could be used. By making the axis side of the pad 1 mm thicker tha the opposite site the saxophone would be alright. An alternative solution could be to lower the right hand posts 15 mm, but that is too much work for me.

In such a case 4.6 mm leather pads will leak in a few years unless ugly thick shims are used. I don't name the stencil brand as you don't find this problem in their main products.

The solution with the sloped pads made the sax sing.

 

[Woodpad]

A part of making pads fit with silicone past is to apply the right amount of pressure when the silicone becomes solid. In case the pad is closed by a spring the spring applies the pressure. In other cases the force and direction of the fingers are simulated by an elastic band.

The A>Bb key proved to be a difficult one. Recently this bondage method seems to give a good result:

The band goes under the Bb>B pad, is crossed over the pearl and fastened to the farthest post of the ballad C key cup.

 

[PigSquealer]

Nice work and valid technique. I don’t achieve consistent results with pad clamps.
I use a similar technique like yours with rubber bands. Tension set just to being able to lift the key. This being with the pads leveled and sealing. Contact just a fuzz earlier to the heel / hinge side. Otherwise once the impression is set. A leak can occur on heel side. My goal is to achieve a good seal “as played “ with a light touch. Avoiding any memory rebound in the pad. Your pad material may be less sensitive / forgiving ?
Anyone attempting either technique should be aware that your key fitting needs to be proper and solid. Pillars included. Pad sealing with springs loaded. It’s all small stuff.

 

[Woodpad]

My trick for consistency is to close the key lightly by hand, with a leak light present. Observe the pattern of leaks and find the combination of elastic bands and anchoring point that mimics this pattern.
I do this before applying the silicone paste. I try to minimize gaps to app. 0.1 mm before, by grinding the pad. Also the hardened silicone already present in the pads should touch the tone hole in at least two places or one, on most of the tone hole.

The layer of silicone paste applied is as thin as possible but thicker as the gaps. On the parts where the pad already touches the tone hole rim it should be as thin as possible.
When compressed the paste flows mainly to the inside and outside of the pad. When this flow is much larger at one point it can cause back pressure which make the tone hole sink asymmetrical. This is the most sensitive part of the process. For pads up to 35 mm I achieve a success rate near 100% . Above 35 mm the pressure on the silicone paste becomes so low that symmetric sinking is hard to achieve. It often needs small corrections to get it right.

The process is comparable to launching a ship. You try to foresee the whole process, but there is always the possibility that the launch fails. It is a launch less than 1 mm, but similar to leather pads ring formation.

 

[Woodpad]

On my to do list this year is de-gurgling my 1968 6M Conn alto. I padded it more than a decade ago with wooden pads and it is time to check which pads can be improved by new knowledge. It gurgled at low C.

A lot of wooden pads have been changed to polyester due to having the wrong pad height. Most of the cork has to be changed due to this change. Now all pads are closed to low C# and both bell keys are removed. The gurgle stopped and I can do some experiments to find out when it starts again. Mainly introducing small leaks or changing the height of the bell keys. Other non damaging suggestions are welcome.

 

[PigSquealer]

Other non damaging suggestions are welcome.

Try different mouthpiece and reed combinations ?

 

[Woodpad]

Tried different mouthpieces but no significant soft low C gurgle came out.
For the record: Runyon quantum 8 (no insert),Vandooren A28, Rico Royale A7, Bundy ii the Selmer compagny usa, Vito ii Woodwind compagny, Otto Link metal "super" tone master 7*, Selmer C* with square throat, Ria Italy 6, Wanne water 3 20D3.

Then I put the C>B bell key in and there was the gurgle. The largest distance between tone hole and corresponding part of the pad was 7.5 mm. When increased to 11 mm the gurgle disappeared. Still without the B>Bb key. Curious if this is still tunable.

 

[PigSquealer]

Curious if this is still tunable.

A system to check. Setting Key Heights with The Balanced Venting Method

 

[Woodpad]

It is well designed system for setting key heights. Normally I copy the old key heights on the saxophone, but going from 7.5 to 11 mm is too much for that. I think on using a four points method:

1. choose mouthpiece (looking at the Ria mouthpiece)
2. determine sweet spot with low C
3. setting key heights on unvented high C
4. evaluation and go back to 2 if necessary

If there is no possible sweet spot on any mouthpiece it means that the low C gurgle is unavoidable.

 

[PigSquealer]

It is well designed system for setting key heights. Normally I copy the old key heights on the saxophone, but going from 7.5 to 11 mm is too much for that. I think on using a four points method:

1. choose mouthpiece (looking at the Ria mouthpiece)
2. determine sweet spot with low C
3. setting key heights on unvented high C
4. evaluation and go back to 2 if necessary

IMHOH bell keys @ 7.5mm is low. Like close to stuffy zone. 11mm is a fat pinky. I shoot for 8.5 to 10 mm zone.

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If there is no possible sweet spot on any mouthpiece it means that the low C gurgle is unavoidable.

Try a different player. It happens.

 

[Woodpad]

IMHOH bell keys @ 7.5mm is low. Like close to stuffy zone. 11mm is a fat pinky. I shoot for 8.5 to 10 mm zone.

As my pads are build like oversized reflectors the stuffy zone could be different. This is a nice puzzle, but as the new year concert is nearing I need to work on other tasks for the coming two weeks.

 

[Woodpad]

Thought of a method to improve the first fit of the pads. Grind the pad to the required pad height. Than mark north and south of the pad and do a dry fit with paper between pad and tone hole. by pressing, the high spots of the pad can be seen in the paper. With a small correction the fit after gluing improves.

The first saxophone padded with this method will be a C-mel Buescher from 1922 no snap in pads as it is a stencil made for the Jenkins Co. This maker and distributor of musical instruments was the largest in Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Texas and Arkansas. The full name of the saxophone is Harwood professional. This brand name for all kinds of musical instruments, comes from a city in Illinois where the Jenkins family lived before going to Kansas city.

The differences of this saxophone with the Buescher true tone are small. Mainly no man in the moon shape in the crook and the absence of the true tone stamp. The tone holes have a high quality, comparable to Beaugnier. Much better than on the 6M (one of the last) with more areas where the tone hole is thin. Consistency in tone hole thickness is not often discussed, but I don't trust those areas.