Tone or Sound Does vibrato oscillate below the pitch, above it, or somewhere between

[Pete Effamy]

Ok, I'll bite. How in the world can vibrato be done with the tongue?

New one on me too.

 

[Hipparion]

So... I will put this here and let the grown-ups sort out the chaos...

As for my ignorant point of view about vibrato and the sax, it goes along the lines of 'perception, huh ? that's a veeeery tricky thing...'

 

[Veggie Dave]

Ok, I'll bite. How in the world can vibrato be done with the tongue?

I managed to play a vibrato note on a harmonica the other day using the tongue. The other half has started to learn the harmonica so I had to have a go. I'm not sure my technique is really how you're supposed to do it, though. 😉

 

[Wade Cornell]

Just a quick interjection...as an oboe player. We don't use lip vibrato. It's about breath and called diaphragm vibrato and uses variance of breath which can also be used by singers. It can also result in a dip and rise in frequencies but has nothing to do with the lip. This can also be used on flute and sometimes I use it on sax as well.

Although I've never heard of tongue vibrato I'm guessing it's a similar principle where the flow of air is slightly interrupted in a pulsing manner?

 

[6441]

diaphragm vibrato

Isn't that mentioned in The Art of or another classic reference? I think it was presented as another possible choice but maybe was used more in classical music? Since it's not discussed much in these parts, I haven't messed with it.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Just a quick interjection...as an oboe player. We don't use lip vibrato. It's about breath and called diaphragm vibrato and uses variance of breath which can also be used by singers. It can also result in a dip and rise in frequencies but has nothing to do with the lip. This can also be used on flute and sometimes I use it on sax as well.

Although I've never heard of tongue vibrato I'm guessing it's a similar principle where the flow of air is slightly interrupted in a pulsing manner?

Good point Wade. Sanborn has said that he often uses both jaw and diaphragm vib. I occasionally use it in ballads for a larger pulsating sound - but couldn’t use it on the flute as I’m terrible.

 

[Guenne]

I remember vaguely reading somewhere this may not be the case, in that perhpas the human era/brain mechanism does not interpret the "average" as the note's pitch, but rather the higher pitch of the vibrato bend.

?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWS7cyV7J2o


Cheers, Guenne

 

[jbtsax]

Very interesting video. Here is a completely different approach: Eugene Rousseau - Vibrato

 

[Pete Effamy]

Very interesting video. Here is a completely different approach: Eugene Rousseau - Vibrato

Thanks for this JB. Never seen/heard him play before. It also proves to the nay-sayers that Baroque music can and is played with vibrato - like all the other instruments who were actually around then.

 

[Nick Wyver]

My first introduction to classical sax playing was a reel-to-reel tape my brother got from a masterclass/recital with Jean-Marie Londeix. I've no idea what happened to it but after I took up sax in 1972 he got me an lp of Rousseau playing the Villa-Lobos, Glazunov, Ibert and Dubois concertos. I've still got it and play it from time to time. It's excellent and a brilliant showcase for the chap's talents.

 

[Jazzaferri]

its way in the back of the tongue and its kinda like sayink yah..yah...yah...etc

 

[Trav1s]

Another interesting read for the new reed player.

As a singer and brass player I have found my vibrato on sax to sound similar to my ear and it is not something I consciously have developed. In college (conservatory of music) we practiced straight tone on appropriate styles of music and the instrumental stuff developed out of that.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I can't remember if I did this poll before, I couldn't find it so here it is. Note it's only about jaw vibrato where you lower and raise your bottom jaw.

I was reading the Larry Teal book, and he appears to imply that jaw vibrato oscillates down from the pitch, back up above the pitch and down again, so that the "basic" or "average" pitch is somewhere in the middle of the waveform.

I suppose this would work well for a singer, but I'm sure most saxophone players oscillate down from the pitch then back up to it, rarely going above the starting pitch.

You would think that this would make the pitch of a vibrato note sound flat: if you play a note without vibrato, then add the vib halfway through, the average pitch of the oscilation would be lower, but I don't hear it as sounding flat, even players with a quite an exaggerated vibrato such as Earl Bostic.

This diagram is with the oscillations below the pitch:

And with both below and above, so the "average pitch" is not flattened:

 

[Pete Effamy]

I’ve always been aligned with Teal in this regard. Mainly because of wanting to maintain a fully (always) open sound.

This, I state, having only thought about it. I haven’t sat down with a horn and listened for pitch, or recorded / analysed something already recorded on Logic - this would be easy as Flex would show the “wandering “ of the pitch.

I’ll look later!

 

[ghostler]

I've always considered it the average of both the low and high of the vibrato. It is fast enough that one doesn't notice the sharpness and flatness of it.

I suppose if one is diminishing the frequency of the vibrato to pure tone like towards the end of a phrase or cadence or transitioning to a background chord or slow countermelody, may want to gravitate toward the second series of being under the pitch to pitch for better effect, but never really gave it much thought.

I just do what sounds good.

 

[valjeanmeister]

I don't think the ear averages pitches like a mathematical average of numbers.

 

[ghostler]

I don't think the ear averages pitches like a mathematical average of numbers.

I never gave it much thought. It probably is more logarithmic than linear in nature. I consider the artistic over scientific.

Be interested to see what others think.

 

[valjeanmeister]

Frequency modulation - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[valjeanmeister]

Perhaps we don't perceive vibrato as flat only as long as the lower frequency is still within the acceptable x cents of the nominal pitch.

 

[Pete Thomas]

My apologies, I closed the poll by mistake. Still open until further notice.