Tone or Sound Does vibrato oscillate below the pitch, above it, or somewhere between

[Vlad]

I remember seeing a tutorial type thing with Eugene Rousseaux where he's quite clear about vibrato going down and back, he was of course from the French classical school, but I'd agree with him 🙂

 

[Colin the Bear]

No mention of volume/dynamics yet. My vibrato involves louder and softer. I only use it to create interest on a long note.
Playing alto and sop, I'm in the middle of the embouchure pitch range, so there's room for a little up and down. Even more so on tenor. On clarinet I'm at the top of the range and find it sounds odd to just oscillate down. Thinking about it, I tend to not use vibrato on baritone. Fingers decoration seems to work better.

I look for the room around a note where it doesn't sound offensively off key. There seems to be more room when playing solo with just a rhythm section. I suppose because it avoids the discussion on pitch among the blowers.

 

[Pete Thomas]

No mention of volume/dynamics yet. My vibrato involves louder and softer

I'm aware of what people call diaphragm vibrato where it is created by dynamics. I've never been able to do that and make it sound good.

However as noted above, the poll and thread are specifically about (arguable more popular) jaw vibrato which is made by moving the lower jaw up and down. Or rather down and up. Note that it isn't the upper jaw, I don't believe that would be possible.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Being mostly self taught, I made it up as I went along. I never found the jaw thing comfortable or reliable. I've seen some players shake the whole instrument. For me it all happens in the mouth, oral cavity.

 

[Pete Effamy]

No mention of volume/dynamics yet. My vibrato involves louder and softer. I only use it to create interest on a long note.

Great point.
Are you aware that Sanborn used it as well as vibrato? Usually in a ballad to create a pulsating effect. It’s very effective. And different.

Flute players use diaphragm vib (of course) as do oboes and some classical clarinet players. I (think) I can hear the difference on clarinet.

 

[Ghr9204]

Flute players use diaphragm vib (of course) as do oboes and some classical clarinet players. I (think) I can hear the difference on clarinet.

On clarinet I never did get an effective tremolo. I did vibrato by varying pressure on the reed with my lower jaw, just like on sax.

 

[Pete Effamy]

On clarinet I never did get an effective tremolo. I did vibrato by varying pressure on the reed with my lower jaw, just like on sax.

Me too

 

[Pete Effamy]

Me too

I don’t believe one is better than the other classically - although you have to make sure that jaw vibrato doesn’t get too big. Lots of players played without, of course, especially the Germanic school

 

[Ghr9204]

I don’t believe one is better than the other classically - although you have to make sure that jaw vibrato doesn’t get too big. Lots of players played without, of course, especially the Germanic school

In classical play, I rarely used vibrato. Seems academia frowned upon it, preferring a straight tone. I employ it in jazz.

 

[Pete Effamy]

In classical play, I rarely used vibrato. Seems academia frowned upon it, preferring a straight tone. I employ it in jazz.

I agree, some (many?) did, though it goes in and out of fashion.

It always struck me as being rather silly, as in the section you are surrounded by it. It’s also taking away a valuable aspect of musicality. Plus, why play Beethoven and Mozart (where most seem to moan about use of vibrato) the same as Copland, Stravinsky… I bet all the French players use it, especially on the French stuff.

Curiously, English (European?) French Horn is expected to be without vibrato, but in the US this doesn’t seem to be the thing so much.

 

[Colin the Bear]

If you're not biting how do you vary jaw pressure? Asking for a friend.


For me it all happens in the mouth/oral cavity. Reed pressure/embouchure remains constant. Something happens around the Adams apple/throat area. You can tell I'm self taught by the lack of terminology. 🙄

 

[rhysonsax]

Fascinating conversation with lots of interesting points coming up.

But the scientist in me says that to answer the original question, just find a recording of some nice solo saxophone with and without vibrato and measure what the player is doing. For thoroughness, repeat for 100 other players in different genres and draw conclusions.

I bet plenty of studies have done just this already. For instance this French academic study from the Journal of the Acoustical Society of America. It has a lots of equations and a mathematical model and it also discussed two types of vibrato - "a la machoire" and vibrato "sur l'aire".

And this short article about the history of vibrato among classical saxophonists makes a couple of interesting points:

• In his dissertation The Basis of Saxophone Tone and Production, Cecil Leeson also recommends jaw vibrato for saxophone. He discusses the aspects of pitch variation peculiar to the instrument. The saxophone embouchure setting is close to the top of the possible pitch; thus it is physically impossible to extend the vibrato cycle other than a very small distance above the straight tone. The nature of the instrument causes most of the vibrato to lie below the optimum pitch.
• That statement is affirmed by Fred Hemke, professor at Northwestern University, in his Teacher's Guide to the Saxophone. If diagramed, the saxophone vibrato undulation would dip below actual pitch by .05 to .15 of a semitone and then return to pitch.

Rhys

 

[Pete Effamy]

The saxophone embouchure setting is close to the top of the possible pitch; thus it is physically impossible to extend the vibrato cycle other than a very small distance above the straight tone. The nature of the instrument causes most of the vibrato to lie below the optimum pitch.

This is the classical “pinched” embouchure - as I call it, usually upsetting people (but it is!) - same for a lot of classical clarinet players too - not open enough for me

 

[Ghr9204]

It always struck me as being rather silly, as in the section you are surrounded by it. It’s also taking away a valuable aspect of musicality. Plus, why play Beethoven and Mozart (where most seem to moan about use of vibrato) the same as Copland, Stravinsky… I bet all the French players use it, especially on the French stuff.

From a musical perspective, saxists IMO tend to break the norm. A good vibrato does sound nice on clarinet soloing on a classical piece. But, I just follow what the bandleader wants.

Although as of late, I have not been using vibrato at all on the tenor sax in the community band like I did when playing first alto. But then, most of the stuff I've been doing is more of a background supportive roll. I become like the 4th viola in an ensemble of flutes, oboe and clarinets. Sometimes I am doubling with the 3rd or 4th French Horn. Other times, I'm doubling with the the trombones or baritones.

I did much more lead / soloing on 1st alto. Sometimes it feels as though the arranger did not know what to do with the tenor sax, and so I end up doubling with an odd array of other instruments. I get my share of rests, too. Soloing or leading is very rare.

I found a darker, softer breathy sound of the tenor to blend well.

 

[Pete Effamy]

From a musical perspective, saxists IMO tend to break the norm. A good vibrato does sound nice on clarinet soloing on a classical piece. But, I just follow what the bandleader wants.

Although as of late, I have not been using vibrato at all on the tenor sax in the community band like I did when playing first alto. But then, most of the stuff I've been doing is more of a background supportive roll. I become like the 4th viola in an ensemble of flutes, oboe and clarinets. Sometimes I am doubling with the 3rd or 4th French Horn. Other times, I'm doubling with the the trombones or baritones.

I did much more lead / soloing on 1st alto. Sometimes it feels as though the arranger did not know what to do with the tenor sax, and so I end up doubling with an odd array of other instruments. I get my share of rests, too. Soloing or leading is very rare.

I found a darker, softer breathy sound of the tenor to blend well.

Yes I think wind band music is an aside to an orchestra. I only ever played Bb or Eb clarinet in wind bands, but it always struck me that arrangers / writers usually wanted woodwind or brass - the saxes were playing at being either a French Horn or Trombone really, and mostly had v boring parts.

 

[Ghr9204]

Yes I think wind band music is an aside to an orchestra. I only ever played Bb or Eb clarinet in wind bands, but it always struck me that arrangers / writers usually wanted woodwind or brass - the saxes were playing at being either a French Horn or Trombone really, and mostly had boring parts.

Over time, something I learned is that although sometimes all clarinets play an ensemble, the 3rd/4th often did a different orchestral transcribed part, became the 1st and 2nd violas. The alto saxes became the 3rd and 4th voilas when in ensemble with the 3rd & 4th clarinets.

In high school, the less experienced/not so good clarinet players played 3rd and 4th clarinet parts. As a student, the thought is they are less important. Yet I learned with the military bands that these definitely had an important roll and often carried the countermelodies.

Thus I did not mind playing the 3rd clarinet part. It had a better role than the tenor sax orchestrally transcribed part.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Tremelo, can be a variation of amplitude.
Vibrato is going above and below the intended pitch.
When combined, it's, vibrotrem. Not sure if there's a pedal. 🙄
There is a difference between French and German vibrato with the Flute.

 

[Ghr9204]

There is a difference between French and German vibrato with the Flute.

Thanks for a bit of clarification between locations on how flute musicianship is taught.

I am more of a detached observer, being a beginning level flute player. (Still am figuring out which end of the flute to blow from.) 😀

For me, it is more of a mind over matter thing. "If you don't mind, it don't matter." 😉

 

[Tenor Viol]

As a string player, on the cello the vibrato is centred on the note and goes above and below. You can vary both the depth and the speed of the vibrato.

 

[Pete Effamy]

As a string player, on the cello the vibrato is centred on the note and goes above and below. You can vary both the depth and the speed of the vibrato.

Very graphic and obvious on strings. Presumably no potential to stifle tone production however much movement you make to create vibrato.