Theory & Impro Do we really need theory?

[JSL]

Ok, I'll admit I haven't read this entire thread; I did read the first few pages and scanned through much of the rest of it (trying to catch up here). Going back to the question posed in the title, I thought an excellent answer (well, at least one I totally agree with) was given way back on page one:

In my experience, the more I learn about jazz chords and the scales, the more colors I have on my pallet to use to express myself. As one listens to the great players in this idiom, it becomes clear that they use the complete pallet to express themselves. Perhaps the greatest of them do it simply by ear, but for the rest of us "mortals" we can learn from them by transcribing and analyzing what they are playing melodically and harmonically.

I really like the 'color pallet' analogy. Studying, practicing, and experimenting with various scales, chords, chord progressions, and how they all fit together gives you a lot of different sounds (colors) to use. And understanding where and when to use them helps discover an effective way to improvise and, ultimately, sound good. That's maybe overly simplified but gets to the reason I see music theory as useful.

To use an over-used, but useful (which is why it's over-used), analogy, the more tools you have in your toolbox, the better job you can do. Or something like that. So, do we really need music theory? I'd say it is very useful and many of us (myself included) do need it to improvise effectively. That doesn't mean constantly 'thinking' about the theory while playing, but rather internalizing it to the point you don't have to think about it, freeing you up to playing with expression, rhythmic accuracy, and interacting with the rest of the band, etc. All using your ear.

If you are only ever going to read music (I doubt that's the case for most of us here), then you don't really need any theory. But if you want to improvise a solo, it sure helps to know the song form, be able to hear the chord changes, know something about what to play over a given chord, in a given key, and so on.

As to science, I'm also a scientist. For those non-scientists here, if you're interested in the scientific definition of 'theory' (which is far more rigorous, and different from the common use of that term), look up the definition of "scientific theory" and application of the "scientific method". Maybe check out "critical thinking" as well. All topics that should be taught from grammar school right through college, imo.

Music theory is not quite the same as science, but it does involve the analysis of chords, scales, chord progressions, and how to use them. Also, to an extent, why they work in certain ways. As a bonus, I just find it very interesting how it all fits together. Like a huge puzzle of sorts.

 

[Colin the Bear]

I haven't read that last post. It seemed only fair. 🖖

 

[Dr G]

If you don’t use altissimo you’re missing an awful lot of what a saxophone can do.

You’re right. There is a lot of it that is awful.

That makes it all the more wonderful when played well.

 

[Ghr9204]

I £&@89£! concur.

Across the pond, I $&@89$! concur, too! 😉

If you don’t use altissimo you’re missing an awful lot of what a saxophone can do.

If one simply learns a couple of notes on the lower end of the altissimo register; say alt F, F# (helps when sax lacks - actually easier to finger), G, G#, A; just that small amount expands sax capability.

This really helps with soloing. Just that small amount makes a huge difference, prevents one from having to drop an octave lower to finish out the phrase. 😉

 

[JSL]

If one simply learns a couple of notes on the lower end of the altissimo register; say alt F, F# (helps when sax lacks - actually easier to finger), G, G#, A; just that small amount expands sax capability.

Yes. I use altissimo F#, G, and A quite a bit more than other altissimo notes. And those notes can be very effective. I do occasionally go up to altissimo C, C#, & D, but use them more sparingly. Kind of amazing though, how an audience will start cheering if you hold that high C# or D for several beats! Then again, there's always the risk they'll run out of the room holding their hands over their ears.

 

[JSL]

I haven't read that last post. It seemed only fair. 🖖

Totally fair! 😉

 

[Dr G]

Yes. I use altissimo F#, G, and A quite a bit more than other altissimo notes. And those notes can be very effective. I do occasionally go up to altissimo C, C#, & D, but use them more sparingly. Kind of amazing though, how an audience will start cheering if you hold that high C# or D for several beats!

Even better if you can do that John Mayer stink face while you’re playing the high notes.

For that matter, the audience broke out in cheers, whistles, and applause when he played a whole chorus of farty sounds on his trumpet. It sounded like middle school band rehearsal warmup. <sigh>

I’ll never understand why people encourage that which deserves nothing, yet ignore the good stuff (or talk over it).

 

[Tenor Viol]

Most people, i.e. non-musicians, are ignorant of what is actually difficult and assume overt technical complexity is 'it'. I know a violinist who plays what he calls Eastern European and Irish 'folk' music. His perfformances consist of zillions of notes in various registers. Cue wild applause for the spectacle. All he's really doing is playing arpeggios and pentatonic scales - that's it. I doubt there's any actual 'folk' music in there at all as when I've heard him there have been no 'tunes' evident. He announces a piece and then just plays another variant on lots of arpeggios and pentatonic scales.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Ooh! Bebop folk violin. 😊

 

[mizmar]

Ooh! Bebop folk violin. 😊

If ever there was a moment for the classic

 

[Ghr9204]

Yes. I use altissimo F#, G, and A quite a bit more than other altissimo notes. And those notes can be very effective. I do occasionally go up to altissimo C, C#, & D, but use them more sparingly. Kind of amazing though, how an audience will start cheering if you hold that high C# or D for several beats! Then again, there's always the risk they'll run out of the room holding their hands over their ears.

I find that those notes I enjoy the most on the bari sax. It is my favourite sax to play, because it is so versatile. Plus, my aged early 1950's Le Blanc Beaugnier Vito does it so easily. The designer of it IMO was a genius.

 

[LostCircuits]

If you don’t use altissimo you’re missing an awful lot of what a saxophone can do.

Awful lot? Definitely!

No. seriously, I am using altissimo a lot, especially the palm key substitutes E, F and then F#, G, G# (my nemesis note) and A up to whatever I need to go. And that's the easy part. But I am always striving to use them only as an extension of the standard range if the phrase requires it, and while avoiding the nails on a chalkboard tones I hear too often.

 

[Ghr9204]

while avoiding the nails on a chalkboard tones I hear too often.

This is why I like altissimo on bari. It's still mellow. 😉

 

[Tenor Viol]

Ooh! Bebop folk violin. 😊

Pretty much yes.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Even better if you can do that John Mayer stink face while you’re playing the high notes.

For that matter, the audience broke out in cheers, whistles, and applause when he played a whole chorus of farty sounds on his trumpet. It sounded like middle school band rehearsal warmup. <sigh>

I’ll never understand why people encourage that which deserves nothing, yet ignore the good stuff (or talk over it).

The ranges of all instruments has widened over the years. Think of the orchestral joke:

“I’m… not an English Horn, it’s just too high for me, I’m not an English Horn” -

Sung to the opening bars of bassoon solo on The Rite of Spring.

Without extending trumpet range we’d never have arguably the most exciting part of a big band at full tilt.

Even Paul Desmond threw a few harmonics out, and the fab solo in Peter Gunn by Ted Nash.

Brandon Fields plays up to harmonic F with a rounder tone than most people get in the meat of the horn. He plays tunes up there too, not just squeals.

I do also like the occasional squeal too (in the “right” place), as it can sound like a human scream.

Piano extended both ends.

Sax has a very small range (compared to clarinet - 3 1/2 octaves in Mozart’s time) and along with the oboe was always going to be extended.

I agree with you about not just throwing it in when inappropriate though, just because “you can”. Same goes for fast passages too.

 

[Dr G]

I agree with you about not just throwing it in when inappropriate though, just because “you can”. Same goes for fast passages too.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I will not attend another Chris Potter concert. I was exhausted, ears and mind, by the end of the concert, and not in a good way.

Even John Coltrane could play a ballad. There’s a broad expanse of expression on the saxophone. I wish more people could use it all.

Which brings me back to altissimo. I’ve nothing against it. And there are a lot of other notes on the horn as well. Use them all. Shout out to the deceased leader of the Santa Fe Great Big Jazz Band, my flute mentor and friend, Dean Perry. I recall the start of my first tone lesson with him. “Play a B. Make it the most beautiful note you can. Now play it again as long as you can with the same sound and slur to a C, making that note just as beautiful.”

Keep it musical.

 

[Pete Effamy]

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I will not attend another Chris Potter concert. I was exhausted, ears and mind, by the end of the concert, and not in a good way.

Even John Coltrane could play a ballad. There’s a broad expanse of expression on the saxophone. I wish more people could use it all.

Which brings me back to altissimo. I’ve nothing against it. And there are a lot of other notes on the horn as well. Use them all. Shout out to the deceased leader of the Santa Fe Great Big Jazz Band, my flute mentor and friend, Dean Perry. I recall the start of my first tone lesson with him. “Play a B. Make it the most beautiful note you can. Now play it again as long as you can with the same sound and slur to a C, making that note just as beautiful.”

Keep it musical.

Exactly. Shame about Chris Potter

 

[LostCircuits]

I will not attend another Chris Potter concert. I was exhausted, ears and mind, by the end of the concert, and not in a good way.

As much as I hate to admit it but I had a similar experience with Keith Jarrett. Half of the concert was crawling into the grand piano and plucking strings. There were not too many folks in the audience who enjoyed it.

 

[Bokagee]

I can't say "we" need theory, but I can say that "I" find it more than quite useful, possibly because going to music school brainwashed me in that regard.

While studying with Jerry Coker I was indoctrinated into the George Russell way of thinking. It was put across to me as a method of ear training that I would eventually discard, just playing what I thought sounded right. I said "why not just realize that on the altered dominant the 5th, 7th and 9th are altered from a major scale instead of thinking of lydian augs?", and Jerry gave me kind of a wry smirk and said "stick with the lydian augs". So I did, for a long long time.

But then, my OCD (I say that euphemistically, I don't really have OCD... or, well, maybe a little) leads me to try and figure out how Coltrane assimilated Slonimsky's Thesaurus. I'm still working on that, but a theory background helps me, or confuses me, I can't say which. Here's an example, number 187 from the thesaurus, from the Ditone section, Ultrapolation of one note -- yeah I know, but I won't go into that gobbledygook here.

So, says I with the theory background, that's like a C7+9+5, but the D needs to be a Db. I like symmetrical non-terminal patterns (more gobbledygook) so the sound appeals to me -- tritones and 2nds -- but to make it fit the paradigm I was taught, I make the last ascending interval a 4th instead of a tritone. BUT what if I think of it as applicable to an F#+9+5 instead? Then it needs the D natural, and more perfect symmetry is maintained.

Does that matter to anyone but me? Nope. Do I think of all that while I'm playing a solo? Nope. I use it as a technique exercise and apply it to 12 keys, playing as fast as I can, as cleanly as I can, extending it up and down to the extremes of range as best I can. I suppose it leaks into solos just because I've played it a lot, and it impacts my mind, consciously and sub-consciously. Is this how Coltrane assimilated Slonimsky? I think probably not, but I don't know. Of the whole thesaurus I've been able to isolate only 25 or so exercises out of 1300 entries (and that ignores the last 80 pages of the book) that I can apply a Russell-esque method to try and understand them. Slonimsky was avante-gard, after all, a 12-tone kinda guy, and his thesaurus is an illustration of his idea of EVERY WAY to traverse an octave, and codification of the same.

Do I need the theory for anything but to formulate my own weird little technique exercise? Probably not, but it's how I've trained my ears, western concepts of harmony and all. I don't think this particular example is about making art; it's about developing craft.

 

[skeller047]

I started playing clarinet almost 7 decades ago. I’ve learned a lot of theory, written some music, deeply studied some other music, and have my own ideas about some stuff that doesn’t really make sense to anyone but me.

And yet, I still struggle daily with the major scale…